Its not going to be football tomorrow, it will be utter carnage.
And its us Tims that will be doing the carnaging 
Now night night ya lonesome walker
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This, if I’m understanding correctly is key, and a delay to what we have been regarding as ‘launch’. Not just from this roadmap but for a long time.
Issuing the native token is a big milestone and the best mark of network readiness, and while token issue could be redone if needed it is something very much to be avoided - hence it’s usefulness as a milestone and it’s being equated with launch.
I have no idea why this could not be shared sooner.
I’m glad - if I’m reading this correctly - if we have eeked some clarity on this point and the fact that October is no longer a product launch.
@Bux If I’m not reading that right please correct me and clarify.
I’m baffled why the pretence of no major problem, continual progress and no reason to delay launch was maintained while members of the community were raising questions publicly and tearing our hair out privately. Those who still have hair that is.
I hope Bux, you will learn to trust the community more, if that’s the issue, and to engage and leverage what we have been trying to offer. I have to point out that my work seemed to be an inconvenience to be obstructed rather than supported, but that this is for me not personal. Just bloody frustrating, so unnecessary and counter productive.
Once generous members of the community stepped in and I was able to get on I found several bugs, which with launch in prospect seemed kind of important. Not just in itself, but as an indicator that things were not ready. That things necessary for launch were going unchecked, and the pieces necessary to enable that delayed.
That’s been the building awareness for me over time. The incongruence of a plan rapidly approaching launch, and more and more indications that the plan wasn’t tenable. Yet we kept being told everything was going to be ok 
Bux, it was obvious to me from the start that you have many outstanding qualities and bring such a lot we have not had previously, and that hasn’t changed. I’ve no insight into what the issue has been here and no need to aportion blame. I’m explaining my perspective only to try and bring clarity and hopefully help us all to move on and do better, very much including me.
Assuming my understanding above is correct I would like a reset. Let’s see the plan asap and go from there. Personally I’m fed up with feeling like a mushroom and plan to take a break and just try to help get the dev forum back up until the plan is published, and then go from there.
But given where we have got to I think it will need to be candid, and make sense, so I hope that’s what we will get. Otherwise things will remain in this awful place and I can’t function that way. The past few months have been really hard out here, not just for me.
I’m sure that’s true inside the Autonomi tent too, but if we can come together it will be better all round and so that’s what I’m hoping we can do. 
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I respect you guys massively - aware and appreciate fully that you’ve been together on this journey for a really long time, and although I’m a late in the day companion to your adventure, I am committed and geniune in my aim to do what I can, with a different (but hopefully complementary) set of skills to see you all reach where you intended to be.
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Or maybe 4th Feb. None of this day after month. Its day month year
A lot of pent up frustrations coming out at once I’d say @Nigel and David has been the release point.
It always seemed to be beta launch was a alpha + 1/2 beta launch. And Launch will be a beta version capable of running on its own.
Now this can be a valid way to do this. So many products are released this way and end up being very successful.
My opinion since we are at it is that launch before November is not a good aim. Maybe to have 1st of November (end October if you want) the start of launch release candidates and testing there. So aim for 1st November to have launch ready code ready, with final testing on launch release candidates and the focus shifts to documentation, API cleanup, final bug fixing, etc
In my opinion we need to be testing the launch release candidates for a month or two and with xmas, new year, etc we launch late Jan or even 4th Feb as the answer to it all
The team is working so hard at the moment with the consequence that communications with the community is at an all time low. This is where some of the frustrations have been coming from.
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It was no day, month year.
Like sometime next February
If that doesn’t overcook yer raw prawn, cobber
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I think, as I was a little concerned about with my half baked message, that things may have got a little lost in the lack of details/translation. So, how about this - I will share with you guys, the full breakdown/write up of what we’re planning, based on what I perceive is realistic, versus what has been spoken about or part done/not having poked been fully factored/considered. I ran thinking/sequence through with the board on Thursday just gone, so I’m not trying to delay anything to you guys, just had to ensure that I had heads around a path forward and plan, and that we had team alignment/commitment ahead of writing it all up so, once shared, we can pull apart together, in here.
I would also really like to establish a better line of comms with you, but will need advice here please - I’m of no real use to you build or bug wise, so as I mentioned in my last message we need something that scales and gives you better access to the guys - I will look at the thread around development forum as well, as with API and toolkits coming, it makes sense for the same to be with you to road test (much the same as the network token)
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Be interesting then and looking forward to hear more about this.
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Ever onward, digital OG Warriors, no matter what happens; especially after so many years, and now this close, just one step away from glory?
Indeed, success is always just one step away from giving up.
But I know the team and OGs are the best people in the world. We have been supporting the network for a long time, and we will see it through.
This network is going to succeed, big time.
How do I know this?
My tarot card reader has told me so, lol
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I re-read what you wrote. I had thought you went over to the dark side with feb the 25th. Hahaha I must read too much American stuff and forgot next year is 2025. I have been alive in 8 decades and still got it wrong. Being alive in 8 decades does not make me 80 but somewhere between 60 and 80.
I did suggest 4th Feb, is that good enough for you grumpy old man. 
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@bzee I’m wondering if you’d be interested in elaborating on what role NixOS is playing here? Maybe I missed something recently and this would make sense in context. I’m Nix-curious, at least, and enjoyed using Guix for a good while. Is Nix providing something specific here, and cursor.sh is just a way to explore it?
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nixos is somewhere on my todo list as well. People I know who are running it consider it the holy grail and can never go back to tedious shell scripts and plasters and duct tape and glue that we are all so accustomed to.
I wrote the above comment before reading all the comments so far on this update - oops. Talk about being off tone.
@dirvine do mind yourself, would you? Health comes first. You’re always welcome in the sunny South-East of Ireland if you need a break from the bad weather and loud pipes over there.
Not to add my “emotions” to the mix, but to add another datapoint - I had nearly totally stopped following since a few weeks after the Discord started.
I saw @happybeing’s requests for clarity on developer issues being ignored. I saw a project where the founder and some team members engaged seriously with the forum morph into what is sometimes euphemistically called “community engagement”, i.e., a minimal forced thing some companies do because they feel obliged to maintain an image for a limited period. Cheery positive language, putting a positive slant on things all the time, marketing buzz, etc.
I assumed, reluctantly, that the inevitable moment had come when the project becomes a baby institution. Institutions, naturally enough, promote their own self-interest, and are not human. And sure, for the network to thrive, we’ll need thousands and millions of new people coming in, and sure, companies tend to do things with marketing because all the other companies do that too. I’m not the person you want around for that period 
maybe it’s necessary, who knows.
I still hoped an actual working network might emerge, and that it might not be too watered down from the original vision that fired me up when I first started grappling with the possibilities that such a network might enable for human beings. I still hold that hope.
[And to be very clear - my views might be crap for any number of other reasons, but not because money concerns are clouding my mind. Not only am I “not interested” in money and making profit, I am generally antagonstic towards those things in my own life. I won’t spout on about it, please take my word for it that my life choices fully corroborate this claim of mine. I want a working network because I want something like this network to exist!]
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Maybe you guys can find common ground in the fact that you both drive on the wrong side of the road.
/runningforcover
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As David seem to have some trouble with energy, to those who write long get well replies, maybe consider liking some other members get well reply instead, before writing a new long reply.
If David has the energy to look at the forum and read replies, that he gets the most important ones and don’t need to read long replies about the same thing over and over.
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Having set deadlines and trying like mad to meet them is a good thing, not a bad thing. Like @dirvine said above, this project (abetted by some in the community) have gotten too complacent. If you don’t accept the pain of meeting hard deadlines, you won’t deliver. If that’s the shift that got us the current network (still WIP), I applaud it.
@dirvine, please keep that focus. I’m honestly shocked to see you finally have that mindset. Don’t relent because of the feedback on that particular aspect. It’s the only way. Anyone who’s actually created and delivered a massively life-changing product appreciates that. All the rest is just nice opinions. So @bux, well done.
That said, you can’t lose your longstanding community members. Communicating clearly with them what’s going on is critical. And I appreciate it’s hard to do when you’re super busy and (critically) they don’t really have much power.
To the community, some of the lack of communication and feelings of being dismissed you’re experiencing is only the beginning if you give the foundation too much power 
. If you recall the discussions about how much power the foundation should have, this is exactly part of the reason why I was fighting so hard for the foundation to not have much power wielded by an opaque board. You haven’t seen anything yet. It’ll only get worse.
Defang the foundation before it even comes to be (e.g., it shouldn’t be sitting on double the MAID supply). This is just how groups of humans with power begin to operate. It’s not a judgement on any one person. You build a system capable of withstanding the absence of any one person, not with the belief that somehow a particular individual will always be there to maintain the fundamentals. David will not be forever at the foundation.
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Just picking up on your comments on the foundation we’ve dived into that one as well, some of the aspects where (by necessity of design) too centralised and a little based on ‘trust me Im a good human’ - which with all we know isn’t the right formula for tomorrow, no matter who is here today. How we’re addressing this (important when maidsafe will end up under the care/ownership of the forum and not shareholders) will also be included in the write-ups we’ll share.
Think I will need a new ‘thread’ for that guys (presuming you prefer as new/fresh titled post with links etc?)
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Keep up the great work @Bux. You’ll get clobbered a lot, but keep fighting. Very few will understand. But in the end they’ll be happy.
And sounds good re:your foundation writeup. That’s not important at the moment.
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I always have, what was missing was the network working and to the original design. I need to write up some stuff, but it’s been a journey for sure. The basis of the whole thing is probabilistically working without centralised control, but it goes further, like ants etc. Also like cellular automata the nodes cannot have “agreement” between each other to make decisions directly.
Wolfram talks well about his phenomena, computational irreducibility. In essence we have super simple nodes, they have very simple rules they follow individually and when there is enough of them we see emergent behaviour. That behaviour is based on protecting data and serving it.
Sybil defence is a massive part of what we fought in the last decade and the ONLY answer modern tech has is full ordered systems, i.e. deterministic approaches to complex agreements to get to a decision. This is where it’s hard to explain.
So the network (like an ant colony or node in game of life) expresses behaviours that are not predicable up front. The way it forms, the way data distributes and the way it achieves it’s goals are all very natural, but from an Engineering perspective, totally alien (like a bee flying). However to get a network with super simple nodes that are using hardly any resources, but yet stores and serves data securely is paramount.
So the data first, we make that either self validating or cryptographically signed. In essence the network cannot create and should not be expected to create (old issues with network creating coins included in this error).
With data transformed into stuff that is validatable, but not requiring the network to sign or create is vital. Same with currency.
Then Sybil attacks. the scourge of decentralised networks, especially with money involved. The answer is very simple, but eluded us for years. That is basically using DISTANCE as the measure of who holds data as opposed to a fixed number of nodes. The means sybil attackers can become part of a group, but not all of the group. Add in the fact they cannot create or somehow agree on a data value, then all they can do is not serve data, but honest nodes will and they exist in that group.
And this Is where we are, we have the simple nodes, they don’t have group consensus or agreement directly, but their actions will look as though they did, like ants cleaning a mess or stopping intruders etc…
The key now is ensure the rules are as simple as they can be (easy) and remove the bugs.
Given that, the result is a much simpler proposition, but one that is well grounded. The recent test networks are proving this approach works and stability is becoming something we almost expect. It will get better as we remove some remaining crud from the code and Engineers appreciate this approach, it’s NOT what we are used to but it’s how neural networks, our brains and nature works.
With all that behind us, we become almost a product company and the product is that base network, with the addition of a solid API that devs (and us) can build on. That part can be quick as long as we start simple and grow features over a long period of time. This stuff is non obvious and alterations must be very well thought out and poked at. The computational irreducibility component means if you add even a single if statement the whole network is affected in ways we cannot perceive. This cannot be understated.
That is why now, we can have goals and push ourselves towards goals that we must see as hard goals. Of course these can move, but that should be seen as a fail and we must ensure folk don’t fail. The only way I know to do that is head down bum up and get stuck in. That’s a gear change for the whole team and one we simply have to make. As you see though it does mean less chatter and engagement and there we failed to maintain at least a level of discourse. The also must change, but the rush towards goals needs to be pushed as hard as we possibly can.
That is the only way we know what we have, all other options are just wandering in fog and we have done enough of that, as justified as it was, it’s over now. We simply must push hard and only by folk using this network, will we know what we have.
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“Hear, hear!”
For historians, this was 20240901, YYYYMMDD
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Said so earlier but want to say it again.
Standing where we are today feels like massive progress.
We have an actual test network with huge up times.
Not just a 120 second (but very enjoyable) late Thursday evening fumble.
On the social front we also have a huge influx of new members.
I know people don’t like Discord and it’s been debated elsewhere to the bitter end
but we need to use current comfortable tools to get the message out.
In time as alternatives appear on the Autonomi network I am sure we will naturally
move over just like hordes of previous services are sunset. Anyone remember Friends Reunited, MySpace? We need to bootstrap the network technologically and socially by any means. Imagine if the awareness of the original internet was delayed because people objected to the use of legacy tech like newspapers?
The referral program is igniting a network effect. We only recently hit 2000 members and in a blink we have just hit 2194 as of today. I think we are on the cusp of a boom in numbers. Rewards are nice but for me the gamefication of getting members on board is fun. I can’t complain, I have been around accumulating tokens for a while. If you’ve been here for a while and are exclusively depending on accumulating tokens by being in wave one you are probably not having fun in the right way.
In most projects with established tech deadlines creep. Looking back at where this project was and where we are now with the tech, we have client software, the social networks being used, the branding, the new personalities, we have a lot to be proud of.
I think we are probably getting a bit frustrated because we can smell the pie cooling on the window sill and haven’t set the table yet and our bellies are rumbling. That pie is going to be delicious.
I’m not going to name names, and I’ll let these people come forward when they feel comfortable and if they want to, but phrases like “Notable Excitement” have echoed in top technology educational institutes when internal talks have been held on this project. Autonomi has enough material at this stage to generate “Notable Excitement” to fresh brains who have never seen this project and in just a 1 hour talk.
Keep pushing, don’t give up.
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