Why network?! I think itās enough to just go for the coin!
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The more I think about it the more I like the plan with erc20 - this project is old enough to deliver a real mvp at some point
We always said the coin is the last piece in the puzzle when people were asking how itās possible to be a crypto project and āwithout a coinā for so many years and something needed for storage management but not something that needs to be designed first or being the purpose of the networkā¦ And when maidsafe now decides to first test and bring life to the rest of the network instead of waiting for the coin to be tested well enough people criticise this stepā¦
I understand all criticism and I understand all fearā¦ Iām super afraid weāll get derailed in this Blockchain chapter tooā¦ But it opens so many possibilities and it is a reasonable plan with roughly specced out plan to launchā¦
Is a timeline including a erc20 (real utility token) release really worse than the state of the last 9 years with no timeline at all?..
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Are you serious? Iād vote in that case for releasing a network (maybe run on one server) that doesnāt have a data layer and just comes with the coin for @Toivo
And the rest of us then proceed to the data network with temporary erc20 payments
I guess weāll see which token goes to 0 and which network gains traction 
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On 1) I donāt think anything has actually changed other than the ERC20 step to allow a far earlier launch, and integration with the ERC20 ecosystem of wallets & exchanges.
It was always going to be possible to create many currencies just like Safecoin on the network, but the big differentiator was that Safecoin was needed for data storage. This is still planned to be the case.
David clarified it in a post he unfortunately deleted, but it stated that āoperators need to agree to such a hard fork, they wonāt agree on suicide of operatorsā.
Nodes wonāt vote for accepting some token that destroys their holdings / earningsā¦ but in theory they could if they were self-destructive, just as Bitcoin nodes/miners could opt to inflate the supply by 1000x, but they are economically incentivised not to.
This may be a possibility people hadnāt considered due to it being very unlikely given the incentives at play, but it was always there, and David was just playing with scenarios that opened up various possibilities, but itās now clear that he was not in any way proposing economic suicide for node operators that some feared he was (I was wondering too at some points prior to clarifications).
On 2), given the only actual change is the introduction of the ERC20 Network Token, the only new risk I see is that any community with an ERC20 token could fork the Autonomi code with a tweak that means it accepts their token as payment instead of Autonomiās token. I initially thought this could be a big threat, but, given the likely huge headstart Autonomiās ecosystem will have with developers making apps, and people already using the network before any other communities catch on, I think itās unlikely to happen on a huge scale, and the economic incentive for other communities to want to earn in their own token by offering storage space is easily added to the main Autonomi network with DEX integrations that makes it dead easy to convert earnings into any desired ERC20 asset. (This is could actually be a huge selling point for Autonomi; give any community the ability to effectively turn their spare storage space into whatever their favourite token is by running Autonomi nodes with some DEX integrationā¦ and they might also end up wanting to use the network and hold some Network Tokens).
The benefits of the ERC20 move are significant (those have been discussed a lot), and the risks seem fairly small to me at least, so Iām convinced it makes a lot of sense.
Are there any new or significant risks you perceive beyond what Iāve written here that are still concerning you despite the very strong clarifications from David and Bux?
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I wanted to share what Grok and I produced in a few minutes to give me more insight into synergies between blockchains and Autonomi. IMO for the blockchain network(s) to scale they have to have Autonomi and for Autonomi (self healing, autonomous, decentralized, private pay once for eternal storage) IMO Autonomi requires blockchain DAOās to non-custodially/decentrally manage and scale to 1000ās of unique languages of billionās of people where the engineers/devs anomnitity is paramount to protect them from violent exploitive multi-trillion dollar industries their dApps are/will disrupt (thankfully).
Hereās an updated design incorporating the management of blockchain nodes, particularly Layer 2 EVM nodes, within the framework of a decentralized autonomous network (DAN) that hosts and manages its own codebase:
System Overview:
**1. Decentralized Code Hosting and Management:
- Distributed Version Control: The DAN uses its own decentralized version control system where the codebase is distributed across multiple nodes. Each change or commit to the code is synchronized across these nodes, ensuring redundancy and accessibility.
- Immutable Code History: Every change is cryptographically signed and stored on a blockchain, making the history immutable and transparent, ensuring integrity and traceability.
**2. Blockchain Node Management:
- Layer 2 and EVM Nodes: The DAN not only hosts its codebase but also manages blockchain nodes including Layer 2 solutions and EVM-compatible nodes. These nodes can be for scaling solutions, smart contract execution, or other blockchain functionalities.
- Node Operations: AI-driven agents autonomously manage these nodes, handling operations like deployment, scaling, maintenance, and self-healing. This includes downloading the entire blockchain for node operations when necessary for validation or historical data access.
**3. Non-Custodial and Autonomous Functions:
- Smart Contract Governance: Governance over code changes, node management policies, or network parameters is enforced through smart contracts. Proposals and voting are executed on-chain, ensuring that decisions are made collectively and transparently.
- Self-Healing Mechanisms: The system integrates self-healing algorithms where AI detects anomalies or failures in nodes or the network and automatically initiates recovery processes without human intervention.
**4. DAO Governance with NFT Tokens:
- Governance Tokens: NFT tokens symbolize governance rights with a cap of 7,777 participants, each token enabling its holder to propose or vote on aspects like code commits, node management strategies, or network upgrades.
**5. Scalability, Interoperability, and Security:
- Scalability: AI dynamically allocates resources to manage node operations efficiently, scaling up or down based on demand, ensuring the network can handle growth in users or transactions.
- Interoperability: The system is designed to interact with or manage nodes across different blockchain ecosystems, enhancing its role as a cross-chain facilitator.
- Security: Utilizes advanced cryptographic methods like zero-knowledge proofs for operations requiring privacy, alongside decentralized identity for secure node and user authentication.
**6. Economic Model:
- Token Dynamics: An AI-adjusted token system rewards participants for contributions like hosting nodes, coding, or participating in governance, with rates adapting to network health and participant activity.
Implementation Phases:
-
Phase 1: Core Infrastructure Development
- Develop the decentralized codebase hosting and version control system. Start with basic AI for node management.
-
Phase 2: Advanced Node Management and DAO Integration
- Expand to include management of Layer 2 and EVM nodes. Deploy the DAO with NFT governance tokens.
-
Phase 3: Enhancements in Security, Interoperability, and Autonomy
- Roll out security features, cross-chain protocols, and refine self-healing AI algorithms.
-
Phase 4: Launch and Iterative Improvement
- After testing, launch publicly, and iterate based on real-world use, community feedback, and DAO decisions.
Conclusion:
This revised DAN design not only hosts and manages its codebase but extends its capabilities to autonomously operate and govern blockchain nodes, including sophisticated Layer 2 solutions. This setup ensures a fully decentralized, self-governing, and self-sustaining ecosystem capable of evolving with technological advancements and community needs, all while maintaining high standards of security, scalability, and interoperability.
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yes guys we have been over this no one is reading your great big wall of txt posts !!
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every one skips to the fun bits !!
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Or the drama bits but lately those bits are bit long too 
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I just want @Toivo to be happy 
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No drink taken here, pal.
If anyone is going to the border it will be the stupid Finns.
No trouble with their peaceful neighbour and major trading partner for 70+ years and then they effed up big-time. There was NO beef between Finland and Russia until the Finns created one, now they will need to deal with the consequences.
They got off very lightly for their part in the killing of a million Leningraders during the siege as they helped their nazi pals, many Russians will be thinking they are long overdue for a lesson.
But Russia has plenty of lakes and forests of their own and they dont need simple-minded lickers of US arse, so they might get away with just a bit of a very well-deserved slapping.
Didnāt they listen to Kissinger? āIts very dangerous to be an enemy of the US, its even more dangerous to be a friendā
Check out the state of Ukraine, check out the German economyā¦ Stupid, stupid, stupid Finnsā¦
St Petersburg police are happy though, they no longer have hordes of drunk Finns to clear up after every weekend. every cloudā¦ eh?
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Thats the problem with relying on anecdotal outliers - they may well be nutjobs - our sadly missed Finnish mod who loved his chickens was certainly a bad-ass nutjob - Mind you he was half-Russian IIANM
But no matter how many nutjobs the Finns have, Russia has an awful lot more -aand they are organised aaaand they can rely on their allies. Do you really think the Yanks will go to war to save Helsinki? Dont be so criminally naiveā¦
If the Finns have any sense whatsoever they will stay very quiet for an extended period of time.
All politcal jousting aside, Im sorry you are having a tough time. I can certainly empathise with you in being skint and āover-extendedā both financially and socially in a crypto project.
Been there, done that and still have the unsold T-shirts (and mugs).
Hang in there pal and lets hope things turn around for you. In the meantime, try to get plenty sleep, exercis and a modicum of political reality. You have an arsehole for a leader, do what you can to get rid of her.
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Please limit the discussions to the topic (and possibly more useful tips about riding a bike from a child).
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Even with correctly adjusted training wheels, keep bandages and antiseptic handy.
Try them out on short grass first before going onto smoother but scarier tarmac
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Also donāt let @loziniak anywhere in the vicinity - he will steal the poor kids bike 
Check his avatar carefullyā¦
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See? He obviously stole that bike off a 4yr old
He does look cool riding it away though - Much respectā¦
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Yep they are jumping to the gifs.
And if @Bux wants to know how to post gifs in the forum here, she only needs to ask me
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Yes. And it was always a possibility, that Safecoin could in theory be marginalized by another currency, if enough nodes would just decide so. I always knew this, and thought that it is not very likely, because of two things:
A) The head start of our network
B) The novelty of the new token technology. The pool of people willing and able to get moving fast enough for a hostile takeover would be small just because there is not that many with the skills needed.
Now with the integration of Erc-20 token, the amount of people with skills to modify the code to accept their token instead of Autonomiās token, is much larger compared to the version of the currency before the recent change.
So basically the threat I see is that when the network is small, there could be a possibility to orchestrate a mass of nodes coming in and setting their token as the currency of the network.
No.
But a technical question:
Do nodes check after each other for what they charge, the type of the currency and possibly the amount? Or are nodes free to charge whatever they decide? If a node says āI deem this data paid for and thus we must store it.ā, do other nodes check that it is in alignment with what they deem valid payment?
Can node for example charge the official currency, but with a price of zero, and at the same time accept a payment in another currency?
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Having time away is good for me except that when I come back I have to read, skim and skip 150+ replies on a topic that is key to trying to understand the basics of what Autonomi have in mind. Even David is clearly not aware because his main source appears to be the forum like the rest of us.
@dirvine thanks for commenting and for all your work, and again do look after yourself. You have done more than anyone could imagine let alone expect and I believe everyone whoās been here a while recognises that.
@Bux youāve added some interesting and perplexing breadcrumbs about your intentions for the native token. They donāt answer the issues Iāve been raising (some of which David has said he agrees with). I think they could do with clarification because, for example most here donāt understand that this is not the native token in all respects (e.g. it canāt realistically be used to pay for storage and I think did acknowledge that in your earlier reply).
So I think if Autonomi have a strategy worked out for this token, its features, capability and a workable plan towards those would be important to share.
Clarity is an undervalued quality in Autonomi IMO so presenting this as part of the September plan was a missed opportunity, but that can be rectified.
My main concerns remain regardless of what you have said though - which is that the choices made take the project away from the fundamentals without a credible chance to bring it back. Just having a native token wonāt change that, but Iām not going to revisit the reasons Iāve given for all the concerns Iāve raised.
@Toivo FWIW I think the ERC20 route may be your best hope (exit with some value sooner) and I sympathise with your situation. We all have to learn this because investment markets are built to exploit the unhelpful human qualities weāre born with and until youāve been burned it is hard to resist them. Some never manage that and are exploited ruthlessly (same in the gambling industry). I still see people walking into the most obvious scams and nothing I can say will discourage them. And I second what Bux has said about appreciating time with your little one. Such good memories to have and very important when youāre older and looking back on your life.
@scottefc86 AFAIK āan unnamed personā didnāt say he was disappearing forever - bad luck 
Personally, I have stepped back and am putting <10% of the time I was into Autonomi related stuff including the forum.
Iāll keep things under review but so far my concerns about the September plan have turned out to be more correct than I expected (as I was having to speculate a lot based on the dearth of detail). I can only think of one thing I assumed that might not be as I presented (how transfer fees would be paid) and that doesnāt change anything.
Also, despite the upbeat dev updates, the project is still in a mess and technically not ready for a meaningful ālaunchā. So it is not just a lack of clarity but to me the idea that launch is imminent is a joke. I already had doubts, but the continued denial and spin keeps eroding my confidence in anything being said by Autonomi. It seems either designed to deceive or a kind of self deceit. I am mystified as to how the team and the community allow this - it risks tainting everyone in Autonomi and I think treats the community like fools. This shocks me.
Iām not a saboteur. I still fully support the fundamentals and particularly the goal of this being for everyone. All my criticism is rooted in what I have argued is likely an irreversible move away from those things, and which Autonomi have tried to dismiss. David however, said above that my fears on that are reasonable and that he shares them.
I believe the true impact of the September plan is still not appreciated here. However, I donāt see the point in me spending a lot of time explaining this because the die has been cast. It is literally painful to keep looking at it - so I do so sparingly - but when I speak I want to be honest and not self-censor. Not everyone will like that obviously!
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If launch comes January, what is a mess? If uploads, downloads and transactions passes tests the coming months? A short bullet list would be nice.
Glad you are back. Some of your criticism have seem personal and fundamentalistic, so I am not sure why you are claiming the things you claim.
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