Haha with a Blockchain even the conversion process to Native token could have multiple attempts and the native token could be allowed to dieā¦
ā¦ Since thereās no exchanges for the native token anyway loosing it and rebooting with a next version of the native token protocol wouldnāt be a huge lossā¦ What use case the token might have - if nodes donāt accept it yet because it doesnāt pay electricity bills - is debatableā¦ But maybe it could for starters just be a collectible of some kindā¦
When it crashes and burnsā¦ The following token could be air-dropped again into something accessible to the sender of erc20 to the burn address
Starting with an erc20 could indeed be like starting with training wheels xD
(ā¦ Actually I never had training wheels and I wouldnāt want them for my kids because I think they donāt train the right thing if you want to learn driving a bike ā¦ But I guess thatās a different discussion again =Dā¦)
Weāll see what the team proposes. I hope itāll be a bit less chaotic than what youāre laying out here
Test versions could be unlockable by snapshots, with the knowledge they wonāt last, and wonāt be accepted by nodes (unless you can have a sub-net / layer of nodes within a live network that store specially marked data, e.g. a ātestā or ātempā data type in exchange for a specific token & wonāt offer permanent storageā¦ that would open up some options!). But if irreversible burning of ERC20 Network Token is involved, it should only happen when itās well tested.
Again, we await details, but letās hope thereās a 2-way mechanism pretty early on to ensure 1:1 value of Native to ERC20.
This is clear to me, and is about the way I have always thought it be, and is fine by me.
What is worrisome to me is this scenario (italics by me):
I see that as a stark deviation of the proposal folks have invested in, when buying MAID.
Furthermore, instead of taking active steps towards opening the currency / token system to competition, I think Maidsafe should guard the system against such competition.
We could make a super virus that explodes the computer of any non-maidsafe developers in the world. Then we are safe until we get past the Fermi paradox.
Of course we should switch from open source to closed code and a restrictive license as well, but thatās super easy to do. Probably shut down all community comms as well, some of those folks are sneaky and might work out what we are doing
I think you might be onto something!!
To be clear, this is not official MaidSafe company policy agreed by the board and voted on by all shareholders. At least I hope itās not
I recall the days of the ICO when we hoped we would raise enough money for 33% dev, 33% foundation for innovation and 33% for competitors. We have come such a long way from those dreams. We now believe any competition means killing our currency, thatās a terrible shame and incredibly short sighted, but I will leave it to others.
My stance on this is clear - we are building and releasing one network token (erc standard known as the āAutonomi Network Tokenā to be replaced 1:1 by the native when that is ready) - the origin tokens (OMNI MAID and eMAID) will be 1:1 for network token - and by extension (through allocation for those not exchanging) Native token. The creation of native token will only be initiated by the burn of the erc20 token - otherwise the tokenomics would be thrown out of whack - including emissions etc. We have worked very hard to decentralize this - even with the foundation being a not for profit it shouldnāt have any substantive control over a decentralized system.
To that last part - this is, I suspect where David is coming from, in what he treats as a safe space with friends and supporters - if the network is decentralized and autonomous, guaranteeing what happens on it - and by who is not something anyone can - or should do. But from a token holder pov - ETH has not been degraded by other currencies existing on its network. I would perhaps also note that the network token, which will by itās nature have the earliest and most established form of utility and distribution for those working with or enjoying Autonomi will take a lot to be displaced due it not being valuable/relevant for the network to operate, especially in those early (0-5/10 years)
@Bux, thank you for this reasonable reply. I donāt have time to go through it very well at the moment, but it is exactly the kind of discussion and attitude I was hoping for. I feel heard now.
@dirvine, the kind of ridiculing you do here is very insulting and uncalled for. If my worries are so āout thereā, why canāt you just reply politely?
no worries Tovio and for Davidās part I think itās most likely a case of lost in text translation - we are just in two different mindsets is all - and Im sure there is no intent to offend through any of our tones, weāre all on the same side, wanting the same things.
You and I are speaking on current state and the position (and the beneficial outcome of that) - this is where (imo) the value for early supporters will be first felt. David, is talking more philosophically as the ecosystem architect - hopefully, my reply goes someway to demonstrate that one doesnāt in anyway (apart from a few crossed wires) negatively impact the other.
Wellā¦ As soon as thereās an exchange within autonomi people could exchange some erc20 to avoid tx fees on micro txs and people earning those token from their streams/other sources of micro txs might want to be on the other side of the market to be able to exchange their AUTOs for erc20 - > fiat to pay bills
Not even storage payment enabled via native needed for such a ecosystem to arise
The trick with training wheels is to set them 1cm or so off the ground on the first day and then gradually raise them another cm every couple of days. My boys only had training wheels for a week or two and were the first of their pals to be cycling properly.
Training wheels is about building confidence in a 3yr old. They want to zoom about and have fun. Its easier to have fun (and learn) if you are not running inside crying with scraped knees and elbows all the time - and the sense of failure that comes with falling off your bike. Training wheels that allow a progressively larger amount of lean and wobble is the way to do it. IMHO.
Maybe he got tired and CBA anymore and you got the brunt of it.
Same way @dirvine took the brunt of the ERC20 pushback which he doubtless felt was unfair , which it most certainly was.
Lets all be nice and move on, whilst wishing @dirvine peace, tranquility and a speedy return to full health.
Pretty certain we will see a new re-energised David in a few months.
My wife has recovered from serious illness 3 times now, Each time it was a struggle and every checkup is dreaded and then celebrated when its the all clear. She (and I ) have been incredibly lucky. But boy was she a grumpy cow at timesā¦
I wish some of that luck on David.
Firstly, I am not expecting David to comment on any of this. From my point of view, nothing in this is between me and him. Itās between me and Maidsafe. Iām only interested in the companyās official stance in these matters.
In my opinion this matter can be divided in two distinct veins:
Has the original currency proposition changed significantly or not?
If yes, what aspects this change has? What are the upsides and downsides? If there are risks to MAID investors, how big are they? How do they compare with the benefits?
Possibly everybody know my view already, but since this is heated topic, Iāll say them once again:
In my view the currency proposition has changed very much. It used to be one currency, and possibly several others built on top of that. Now it is a possibility of several currencies on the same level.
I see a lot of risks here. But Iām aware that my view on them may be out of proportion. The lack of discussion makes it very hard for me to re-evaluate my views. Iād love to be on the opinion somewhere along the lines: āYeah, there are risks, but they are quite theoretical, and the benefits outweights them.ā Without discussion Iām not convinces though. But believe it or not, I actually am open to hear and consider the arguments.
I agree. Iām not asking for guarantee. I know we actually cannot block the radically open nature of this network and, wellā¦ nature, mankind etc. However, we or Maidsafe can affect to a significant degree how easy or difficult different kind of directions and outcomes are. It seems to me, that designing a currency that outcompetes the MAID descendant in the Autonomi network has been made much more easy than it used to be. This my opinion, not an expert one, happy to be convinced otherwise.
Iām not fully aware how ETH system works. To my knowledge the other currencies still need to pay something to the base ETH layer. It seems to me that this structure is going to be different in the case of Autonomi. Hence this comparison does not convince me.
Sound possible, and this is the most convincing point I have heard. But it still too vague to calm my worries. Especially when I donāt know anything about the possible partners of Autonomi, and what are the plans to vitalize our own community.
Unfortunately I need to go againā¦
EDIT: One more thing for the Autonomi folks. I know itās weekend. This is not that urgent, take a rest, Iām not expecting you to work on weekends.
sorry @Toivo i did not read any of your above post we get it your skint and you need guarantees of money and lambos and a time frame for your friends.
i sympathies with your problems as we all would but this is not a get rich quick scheme and you have been around long enough to see prices of $0.01 and $1.00.
neither maidsafe or @dirvine would throw us all under the bus after decades of support so suck it up stop winging and questioning and get your party hat on for launch.
@Southside is already drunk keep it up and ill deploy him to the Russian Finnish border
I sailed with a Finnish captain for my first two years of my apprenticeship at sea from 16 years old and if he was a good benchmark I would not ever try invading Finland they are proper nut jobs
But @Toivo donāt worry and if your friends are hasteling you like mine sometimes do about there investment in maid tell them itās simple learn rust and go and create the impossible network themselves
