Launch Planning: Community Update 🚀

[happybeing]

I’m not back as I never went away in that sense , but thanks for the welcome regardless. In the sense that I can’t contribute to or support the project because of the way things are being done remains the case - so I’m still away really.

FYI there are two issues for me:

1. How things are being done and the loss of integrity and trust that I see.
2. The technical changes that for me make the fundamentals very unlikely to be achieved in <10 years and probably never by this route.

Both need to change for me to be able to support the project because what I support reflects on me.

BTW, my point about “launch” is not related to January. Launch is still billed as this month and that I find misleading to say the least. If they had said launch has been delayed until the ECR20 token distribution happens and the API is functional, I would not be commenting on that point and they would not have lost all integrity in my eyes.

It seems you were also under a misapprehension about what launch means and when it is happening. As I said I really don’t think many really understand the changes or their impact.

Also, none of my points have been personal. I did (weeks ago) single some things which were said out, but only to illustrate what I was talking about wrt to communications.

It is for each of us to make personal judgements, but tbh I don’t tend to do that because we never know the full picture about anyone. So I look at what people say and do and choose how to relate to them (or in this case the project) based on that.

So no grudges, no personal attacks from me. Only comments on actions and the impact I see on the project and my relationship to it.

I am “fundamentalistic” in that I believe that for the project to meet its core goal of being for everyone should be paramount. If not, then it only provides the benefits to some, and that could well make things worse overall.

It appears to me that some investors are being prioritised over the higher goal which is what we see all around us and is literally destroying the ecosystem. Not all investors would choose exit over the fundamentals, but I can imagine the CEO and the board might decide that is their priority for obvious reasons. That’s the way the law is set up, it is the dominant culture in business.

But it was never what drove David or MaidSafe, so I think his absence at a crucial time has had a terrible impact. It is never clear cut and a difficult balance to strike, because we know he also wants to do right by investors. Unfortunately we don’t know what the investors want in this situation - they did after all invest in the project based on its goals, not just because they expected a big profit. This was always a very high risk prospect.

[tobbetj]

I am a happybeing everytime you are back, even if you have been gone or not.

For me it feels like a mismatch between your latest reply and earlier reply.

@happybeing

Also, despite the upbeat dev updates, the project is still in a mess and technically not ready for a meaningful “launch”

Too me this seems like you are implying something is critical wrong and can’t be solved before launch.

@happybeing

How things are being done and the loss of integrity and trust that I see.

This seems personal, you losing trust in something you think is important.

@happybeing

The technical changes that for me make the fundamentals very unlikely to be achieved in <10 years and probably never by this route.

personal views on what is fundamentals.

@happybeing

If they had said launch has been delayed until the ECR20 token distribution happens and the API is functional, I would not be commenting on that point and they would not have lost all integrity in my eyes.

i can’t see launch before API is out, up/down loading has been tested by community and devs and the launch of ERC20. If launch is a few months further away from october then i don’t feel it is much to be upset about. The last 10 years have been much worse. And looking towards other businesses, a few month delay is not much.

For me the fundamental thing is the network, that it is decentralised. What token tech is being used is of less importance. I wish we could have the native token at launch but in the short term it is better to get something out there that works and can be worked upon. ERC20 L2 is not the end but the beginning to the network and towards the native token. In the beginning we have to adopt to the world before we can change it towards the way we want it. The team, Bux and David seems like they have made correct logical decisions so far from the circumstances that was given to them from the world outside this project.

I also have to say that ERC20 L2 scares me a little because a few times I’ve had horrible experience when moving between ERC20 and some ERC20 L2 which did cost north of $100. So i hope the ERC20 L2 is temporary but @Dimitar also said that it was possible to avoid bridging, exchanging and sending ERC20 L2 tokens to and from wallets to exchanges, without having to bridge to ERC20 main net.

I hope you will be able to support the network even if everything is not the way you, I or others wanted. let’s work with what we have and will get. A year earlier I thought this project was going dead in the water, I sold everything. Look where we are right now, close to launching the network. After the network launch then the sky is the limit for possibilites, native tokens and other things.

[David_MacGregor]

I agree with this approach. If Autonomi is going to use a blockchain token for payments then it should align itself with the only fully decentralised one - Bitcoin. The Lightning Network has made major strides and provides for instantaneous and cheap transfers.

[Knosis]

@David_MacGregor

The Lightning Network has made major strides and provides for instantaneous and cheap transfers.

I’m currently in the US and use the Lightning Network to access affordable pharmaceuticals from an international pharmacy. Works flawlessly.

All Day Chemist

[VaCrunch]

I hope you’re not getting hung up on semantics @happybeing. When the Navy “launches” a new ship, celebrations are held on the dock, everyone gets dressed up and a champagne bottle is broken over the bow. It is a joyous occasion, the culmination of months or years of toil and trouble.

But it is actually only the start of sea trials; the ship will soon be back in port for the finishing touches. This reality does not prevent the celebration of the achievement at hand though. You should join with the predominant sentiment, as I see it, and welcome the accomplishment.

You have invested too much of your energy over the years to let such dubious concerns spoil the sense of satisfaction you are so rightfully due, along with all the rest of the team - official and unofficial.

[JayBird]

@VaCrunch

semantics

The general stance of David and Maidsafe in discussions across the board always seemed to be: “We’ll do it in the way that ensures the maximum amount of privacy and autonomy, for the maximum number of people, with the most decentralisation, in the most freedom-enhancing way we can”. This logic was applied without fail to everything, and we all participated. Laughs were had, disagreements cropped up but we got through it, fundamentals were chanted around the fire, etc.

When it came to the issue now apparently necessitating such a major and perhaps irrevocable change of course, that same stance was always taken. I mean, please someone do tell me if I’ve been hallucinating all that all these years?

What I’d understood from those discussions was: yes, something will have to be done for people to change their SNT-(or whatever) into other currencies at some stage, but it will inevitably be solved if we get the network out into the world. The use cases for Autonomi are so compelling, and so various, and farming should be accessible to so many, that we simply need to get the network out there and running and we’ll figure out various ways to do on and off-ramps at that stage.

That story has changed now - it’s now being claimed that if we don’t use a blockchain-based currency to get the network going, there will likely be no network ever. It’s a binary choice, we’re told, between a hamstrung network that we can maybe hopefully one day fingers-crossed get a much better native token running on that will then finally deliver the full fundamentals, and no network.

This is not a “semantic change”, it’s a totally different story, a different ethos.

As I said way above in my previous comments, if the quickest path to investors cashing out safely is all that matters, well, we’ve got a reasonable strategy. And we know of course that there are plenty of people more interested in making early-bitcoin-investor type profits than in a network “for the people”. If that’s your case, and you’re happy with these changes, by all means, get dressed up and get the champagne out, but don’t pretend it’s a teeny little linguistic issue while you’re at it.

[JayBird]

And for the love of God, @dirvine, don’t feel the necessity of replying to that please. I very much appreciate the messages you’ve sent on here, it really did help clarify a lot of what’s going on, and I’ve no question or thing that needs clearing up. I very much don’t enjoy seeing the tone which some people employ when talking to you directly demanding this and that from you, often it seems to me simply because they’re worried about their wallet. By all means, take a break from that toxicity and take care of your health.

Also, I’m repeating myself but I don’t get on to the forum much these days so I have to get it all out, thank you once again to @happybeing (and some others) for continuing to have the head screwed on so squarely and to actually care about the fundamentals of the initial project.

[JayBird]

Lastly, @Bux, if I may be so bold as to address you directly - have you considered that you might be putting the cart before the horse here broadly speaking. Being concerned that we won’t have enough farmers and uploaders in the early days is a legitimate worry, but I wonder if you had the time to browse some of those past forum discussions discussing these matters when you were thinking about these questions?

I mean that on a practical level - you jumped into a project with lots of history and some quite unusual stances, so I wonder if you’d the time to really soak in the fundamentals and not just the exciting buzzwords (which also legitimately do apply to hypothetical networks like the one being imagined around here).

[VaCrunch]

Just a note to remind that intransigence has ruined many a good project. Adherence to fundamentals is not nearly as important as adherence to the spirit of the endeavor and, personally, I sense the spirit is alive and well at Autonomi.

[loziniak]

For those not on Discord:
Submit questions around the project and development and Rusty will work on getting as many answered by Bux as possible during the AMA!

[neo]

@loziniak

For those not on Discord:

Already a topic here

https://forum.autonomi.community/t/discord-stage-ama-google-form-oct-8/40451

[Bux]

Hey hey! Speaking (typing) candidly, I’m a little of the mindset that as long as we take steps toward the goal that we will get to it.

There has been so much you guys have discussed, built, aligned on and disagreed about over the years - but until the rubber hits the road we cannot really, fully know.

If the network doesn’t launch in any form then it would be a case of going back to where the guys were at the beginning of the year and waiting until they felt ready, they could of course have done that but David and Josh felt the network was good to go this year and the board of Maidsafe on behalf of the shareholders I know was pleased to hear and support the same.

The issue with extending or pushing the time out (which Im sure all parties would fully support if it was deemed to be in the best interest of the network), is that the world is changing fast and more/new things might come into play that further protracts or complicates or changes things. It also doesn’t directly (imo) answer some of the big challenges anymore successfully than a launch would, by that I mean:

1. Designing a native token without seeing a network live in the wild is challenging
2. Trying to get exchanges to talk about and entertain idea of supporting a novel token without any performance in market is challenging
3. Asking people or organisations to start uploading their important data without visibility and interface nailed is going to be challenging.

My feeling, and also to some extent in the spirit of how you guys have operated to date, is to meet those challenges out in the open.

1. Have the ERC (network) token and see what tools are most useful, what we see on chain, how people use, where the limitations are and how improves can be made for when we go native
2. Demonstrate to exchanges in a data type they accept and trust how the network is performing and how the token works - great for confidence and collaboration (including future)
3. Support the ecosystem rewards value (uploads and token health) by working with notable partners in a sandbox environment utilising the storage layer tracking and paying for the same with on-chain data while the auditor/DAG aspects are being built out for the native token

You likely know the community, the platform and the tech better than me, I just hope me knowing less and coming with a different context elevates what’s been built here - as that, and not compromising it, is most certainly my intent

[JayBird]

Don’t know if I agree at all turns, but I’d love to be wrong, and have been oft times before. I very much appreciate you taking the time to write out your thoughts - would love to see more of your input on the forum too (no pressure of course )

[rreive]

For the old timers and OGs, The question for the Autonomi Network Community is clear,

Maintain existing patterns of behavior (end up like XEROX) or take what has been learned to catapult the community into main stream use (Apple) so the world can benefit and prosper.

Some of us know Steve Jobs , with no formal education got into XEROX parc, saw the ‘Windowing system and mouse’ on the XEROX Star in their research lab,

Jobs, born in 1955, was 15 at the time in 1970 and the rest was history.

It really took Jobs seven years to get their first product out the door, the LISA was the first product with Windowing and a Mouse, in Jan of 1983. 13 Years later since he first saw the XEROX Star with Windowing and Mouse.

Jobs took the risk and went for it, with Woz crafting all the hardware, to deliver their first hobbyist product in 1976 My high school graduating year. Jobs himself was barely out of high school with no diploma, let alone a degree. He had just the ‘bank of dad’ covering his ‘derriere’.

To keep this Autonomi Network ‘ginormous’ effort in context with the Apple story,

Maidsafe has spent 50% more elapsed time, but with fewer people than Jobs and Apple ever did to get to a point where a viable product with mass appeal is now possible with Autonomi Network.

Make no mistake, Autonomi Network is a product now, not a technology exercise.

So kudos all around to those ‘Maidsafers’ past and present for keeping the project alive

to get to this VERY real fork in the road, that faced Apple back in 1981 at the Start of the Apple LISA development.

Autonomi Network Community and Maidsafe are indeed

at that same fork in the road

The same one that faced Jobs in 1981 when development started on the LISA,

where essentially Jobs was using most all of the proceeds from their earlier aPPLE business serving the computer hobbyists/enthusiasts of the day 1976 to 1980.

Fast forward to 2024 and it’s now time for Autonomi/Maidsafe to

put the foot on the gas

and take that “Apple fork in the road” and go for it.

Sure ‘the first one’ might end up being an Apple LISA.

However, my own ‘spidey sense’ tells me,

looking at the Maidsafe acceleration in progress made in the past two years and the big milestones achieved, with modest resources

The ‘second one’ will be great. (It’s a journey!)

Keep in mind

“the second one” released by Jobs in 1984 was the Apple MAC (on the board in 1982, having ‘market learned’ from the response of early testers of the early LISA prototypes “It’ JUST too Damned Big and Clunky”),

where ‘the MAC’ put Apple on the MAP in K12 and the publishing communities, BIG Time.

The rest 'as they say ’ is history.

Great things are coming for Autonomi and Maidsafe me thinks.

Just consider though, that Jobs and Apple understood the KISS principle and the the UI/UX was everything (@JimCollinson you are appreciated)

cuz Great UI/UX equals

a big LTR ‘Likely to Refer’ score

and there is nothing more powerful, than the third party ‘referral’ sell.

[JBishop]

@rreive

… and the rest was history.

Could be fathering that child was more of a communal thing:

How Douglas Engelbart Invented the Future

Engelbart was no Steve Jobs. He was a shy engineer with no marketing background.

Engelbart didn’t just come up with the notion of using computers to solve the urgent and multifaceted problems facing humanity. He also gave the first-ever live demonstration of networked personal computing. Today, it’s known as “the mother of all demos,” a precursor to every technology presentation that’s happened since—and arguably more ambitious than any of them.

But:

Later in the 1970s, Engelbart lost his key engineers to Xerox PARC lab, a lavish and well-funded research center a few miles away.

A cruel joke of the time was that Engelbart’s Augmentation Research Center had been a training program for PARC.

History repeating itself:

In 1979, Xerox allowed Steve Jobs and other Apple executives to tour its labs twice, in exchange for the right to buy 100,000 shares of Apple stock.

Repeating itself again at the birth of MS Windows:

Xerox’s lawsuit appeared to be a defensive move to ensure that if Apple v. Microsoft established that “look and feel” was copyrightable, then Xerox would be the primary beneficiary, rather than Apple.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Computer,_Inc._v._Microsoft_Corpxerox

So:

After all, he [Engelbart] had foreshadowed just about everything Apple and Microsoft went on to create—at a time when Jobs and Bill Gates were just 13 years old.

But history repeated itself once again, stepsister to his wooden mouse:

Telefunken’s RKS 100-86

Douglas Engelbart invented the computer mouse during his tenure at Stanford Research Institute (SRI). His “position indicator” used two sharp-edged wheels which were arranged at 90 degrees, and would roll or scrape across the table depending on the direction of movement.

But in parallel with the SRI developments, engineers at Telefunken in Konstanz, Germany, were also working on user interface devices. The Telefunken team was looking for a device that could be used with computer terminals, on a regular desk. In 1966, according to this interview, Rainer Mallebrein suggested to invert the trackball: Let a small ball roll across the desk and track its movements via two friction wheels – the invention of the ball mouse.

Yankee versus Kraut-thingy:

 

The Computer History Museum has the only Rollkugel outside of Germany which I am aware of. A brief history of the mouse, and a few more photographs of their Rollkugel – which is in slightly sorry shape, and held in storage to my knowledge.

Slip in one other comment without interrupting the flow? The father of the mouse pad turns out to have been:

Kelley has been captivated by computers since 1968, when he worked at the Stanford Research Institute with Douglas Engelbart, inventor of the world’s first computer mouse. The mouse needed a pad, so Kelley designed it—the world’s first mouse pad, an invention that brought him great satisfaction and an early understanding of the complexities of working in computer environments.
https://www.hermanmiller.com/en_lac/designers/kelley

[rreive]

@JBishop

n 1979, Xerox allowed Steve Jobs and other Apple executives to tour its labs twice, in exchange for the right to buy 100,000 shares of Apple stock.

Yeah, except its a well know fact to insiders that Jobs entered and worked at the facility at age 15 = 1970 as a child prodigy, the exact time he saw the XEROX Star with mouse is still not clearly known.

That said the hallucination of AI above has been ‘curated’ to the narrative of those controlling the AI. Not sure which LLM model this was. Do you know?

[JBishop]

@rreive

That said the hallucination of AI above has been ‘curated’ to the narrative of those controlling the AI. Not sure which LLM model this was. Do you know?

No, silly, it’s in his - authorized - biography. As a book it will set you back 15 dollar, one month worth of regurgitated OpenAI-putty?

Chapter Eight, Xerox PARC:

… Jobs was working on a more complex deal. Xerox’s venture capital division wanted to be part of the second round of Apple financing during the summer of 1979. Jobs made an offer: “I will let you invest a million dollars in Apple if you will open the kimono at PARC.” Xerox accepted. It agreed to show Apple its new technology and in return got to buy 100,000 shares at about $10 each.

By the time Apple went public a year later, Xerox’s $1 million worth of shares were worth $17.6 million. But Apple got the better end of the bargain. Jobs and his colleagues went to see Xerox PARC’s technology in December 1979 and, when Jobs realized he hadn’t been shown enough, got an even fuller demonstration a few days later.

Jobs - “[rebellious], such as not putting a license plate on his car and parking it in handicapped spaces” - cited in that chapter:

The Apple raid on Xerox PARC is sometimes described as one of the biggest heists in the chronicles of industry. Jobs occasionally endorsed this view, with pride. As he once said, “Picasso had a saying—‘good artists copy, great artists steal’—and we have always been shameless about stealing great ideas.”

Another assessment, also sometimes endorsed by Jobs, is that what transpired was less a heist by Apple than a fumble by Xerox. “They were copier-heads who had no clue about what a computer could do,” he said of Xerox’s management. “They just grabbed defeat from the greatest victory in the computer industry. Xerox could have owned the entire computer industry.”

Both assessments contain a lot of truth, but there is more to it than that. There falls a shadow, as T. S. Eliot noted, between the conception and the creation. In the annals of innovation, new ideas are only part of the equation. Execution is just as important.

Jobs and his engineers significantly improved the graphical interface ideas they saw at Xerox PARC, and then were able to implement them in ways that Xerox never could accomplish. For example, the Xerox mouse had three buttons, was complicated, cost $300 apiece, and didn’t roll around smoothly; a few days after his second Xerox PARC visit, Jobs went to a local industrial design firm, IDEO, and told one of its founders, Dean Hovey, that he wanted a simple single-button model that cost $15, “and I want to be able to use it on Formica and my blue jeans.”

[drirmbda]

While the successful inventor of an idea is often regarded most highly of all, the successful explainer or communicator or translator of that idea to the market/public is actually not of lesser importance and should not be admired or valued less. Usually, inventors are bad at explaining and explainers bad at inventing, but both have specialized talents that are essential for the idea to change the world — as long as the key points of the idea are not lost in this process —

[JBishop]

@drirmbda

Usually, inventors are bad at explaining and explainers bad at inventing

Yes, that ‘Smithsonian magazine’-article quoted from earlier, headed:

‘How Douglas Engelbart Invented the Future’

And ‘sub-headed’:

Two decades before the personal computer, a shy engineer unveiled the tools that would drive the tech revolution

Had this about him as well:

Engelbart’s refusal to compromise was one of the main reasons he had a hard time gathering momentum. He often ended discussions by declaring, “You just don’t get it.”

That catchphrase cost Engelbart dearly. His detractors snidely remarked that the great proponent of collaboration was, ironically, unable to collaborate.

www.smithsonianmag.com/innovation/douglas-engelbart-invented-future-180967498

[LOvisWaTer]

Interesting for keeping it simple for folks. Coinbase IMO would have a lot of gas credits they would allocate for Autonomi. Most of my gas fees on base I use every day is a fraction of a cent.

Coinbase Developer Platform🛡️