Maybe we need a dedicated forum for more focused discussions 
I wonder if Codeberg issues would be a better place (without the threat of Autonomi shutting it down).
The crypto was supposed to be a temporary solution to creating a better internet without it. Now it is the driving force of the entire project. You can not exchange money for data storage anonymously , so the network is not SAFE in any sense of the word, especially as described by the founders of the network in 2014.
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The driving force behind the project is a vision to deliver a well functioning decentralised data network.
The ERC20 token is a means to this end, and as has been clearly stated time & again, developing Native Token is planned to be prioritised after the network is fully functional and stable.
I do get your frustration though. I also want to see Native Token ASAP, and can’t view Autonomi as complete without it, but things sometimes happen in stages & take time.
If you’re desperate to see native token, feel free to support Loziniak’s community token work, which could help pave the way for a native token system that’s robust enough for nodes to consider using.
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I recommend this most recent talk. There are 2 dev projects they mention nearer the end - they both have working uploads/ downloads, IIRC they also have streaming capability. The team are VERY anti crypto though. Which I like a lot.
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Yup . Thats why it interests me more than autonomi (sorry) - apps as nodes - super lightweight and simple to route, remote headless nodes as options, ease of use. And crucially, no crypto barriers to entry. The veilid team have really done a good job so far. Not just the code, but the planning - swap out upgradable cryptography is a must. Most of the world is well poor and it communicates via phones not x86 devices. If the internet is to be decentralized then we need to think about phones as the network first and foremost.
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I’d say their opposition to using any kind of crypto or venture capital for funding the network is the main differentiator. Its not just ideological, its a decision based on practical reasons which they explain, they see how other projects fail BECAUSE of these methods not in spite of them. One of the greatest decentralised networks of our age is the torrent network, its stood the test of time and its still going strong yet its entirely voluntary to participate. I think Veilid has even greater potential as it builds on that concept.
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Hi, @Jane i think your/our (others here) enthusiasm for Veilid doesn’t invalidate Autonomi’s value proposition. Different networks can coexist and even strengthen (Hybrid architecture opportunities?) each other by serving complementary needs within the broader digital sovereignty/secure comms ecosystem.
The two projects are addressing different layers of the decentralized stack with potentially complementary roles imo.
Future looks bright!
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Veilid’s ideological purity imo could hamper broader sector adoption by creating unnecessary fragmentation when the movement needs unity to compete against Big Tech’s surveillance infrastructure.
When projects reject collaboration over philosophical differences about economic incentives, it weakens everyone’s position against centralized alternatives that don’t have these internal divisions.
Decentralised systems need massive adoption to be viable, right?. A fragmented ecosystem where Veilid users won’t interact with Autonomi infrastructure (and vice versa) means neither reaches the critical mass needed to challenge mag7 effectively.
Veilid’s “pure” approach may be admirable in principle, but if it prevents building the coalition needed to offer genuine alternatives to surveillance capitalism, the purity becomes counterproductive imo. Sometimes compromising on ideological perfection enables practical progress?
A resource-backed approach to token may create a middle ground that could potentially bridge different philosophical camps? It could address Veilid’s sustainability concerns while providing Autonomi’s economic incentives. But if key players refuse to collaborate, even logical, reg friendly, bridge solutions become irrelevant.
The sector is going to have to choose between ideological purity and practical progress toward digital sovereignty and security.
Fragmentation serves Big Tech’s interests perfectly!
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Torrent has pretty much failed. It’s perhaps the most successful P2P network, and almost nobody uses it (100m people max, vs 5.5bn Internet users). User experience sucks because niche things become unavailable.
The problem with being ideologically against crypto when it comes to decentralised storage is that there is unlimited demand to store data, and it costs to store data.
Hence, a market is needed to balance supply and demand & incentivise people to provide storage resources to those who demand it. Without crypto (or, decentralised currency of some kind), that is not possible in a decentralised manner.
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Veilid can be used for storing large files, they showed a demo of this working pretty fast. With its strong security and anonymity, community archiving will be easier (and hopefully cheaper) than current centralised or decentralised systems. With that in mind I don’t think autonomi’s immutable data will be much of a gain over Veilid because of the crypto problem: cost, tax implications, lack of privacy.
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Even more than the native token, I want security, privacy and anonymity. That is not possible with crypto. You need to file tax returns. Its the law.
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That is great. But I bet their community won’t host my photo archive for free… nor the Internet archive’s data, or anything much. I expect it can’t scale due to a mismatch of supply and demand, even if it’s technically great.
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It’s similar to the eye rolling and huffing going o when app devs suggest fees or adverts.
Everyone wants something for nothing. Few people are willing, or able, to offer something for nothing though.
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Tax returns don’t detail what your uploads were, so there is no privacy or anonymity issue.
Though, your tax authorities will know you’ve likely used Autonomi if you declare the disposal of Autonomi tokens. Is that really a big problem for privacy / anonymity?
If it’s such a big deal - don’t declare it. If it’s just a few hundred $/£/€ value, you won’t go to jail for it, especially if there are no gains on it, as you haven’t dodged any tax.
Anyway, we’re again way off-topic for a thread about an Autonomi cooperative 
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Its all good, and I really want autonomi to succeed but I don’t see what it can do that veilid can’t, immutable data gives it an edge but this becomes less important when community archiving can be done easily and cheaply on veilid. Without a push for native token to mitigate the privacy issues because of autonomi being tied to crypto then immutable data has limited use anyway.
It can, but data is only hosted as long as it is popular. From everything I’ve read, anything older than a couple weeks unused regularly gets pushed out for new data. This is great for a lot of applications and we should leverage it, but Autonomi has a place for things you really want to keep around and for long term data storage its likely going to cost a fee. Same for high levels of compute. If I want someone to render a video, for example, that amount of compute will swamp several computers, it isn’t fair for people to give up their resources for free. If you’re giving as much as you’re taking, that works great, but if you’re taking more than you’re giving, you’re taking advantage of someone else. How can we be sure people are treated fairly? And how can I compensate someone if I need more than what I can provide in network resources? Tokens/money has a place while scarcity remains.
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I disagree, economic incentives have hampered every socially beneficial, anti Big Tech community project I can think of. Money is the route of all evil and all that. Conversely, economic incentives have ensured the enshitification of almost everything once good that ever existed online.
Why not? You can host your own nodes and swap resources. There are alternatives to economic intensives. Torrent network is a good example.
So the idea that autonomi is just going to use all that spare unused storage that everyone has lying around - as claimed on the autonomi sales pitch - IS a lie. I’m glad we have cleared that up.
I hope we can fail as much as torrents with only 100m users 
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