Anyone interested in joining an Autonomi Developer Co-op or startup?

[DavidMc0]

@jane

Torrent network is a good example

It’s a good example of why an non-incentivised decentralised data network can’t be relied on for private / less popular data, or data that needs to be available long-term.

I wonder what percentage of torrents ever created are now dead with no seeders?

@jane

You can host your own nodes and swap resources.

Like Zetawatt posted, this doesn’t work when participants have varying needs / wants for hosting and storing data. Rationing is needed, either through throwing out old or less popular data (bit-torrent / Veilid), or having data securely stored long-term compensating nodes for their resources (Autonomi / Arweave).

[DavidMc0]

Absolutely!

It might be a wonderful milestone on the way to greatness

[John]

@jane

Money is the route of all evil

Centralised currency creation run amok yes, but money , no (unless something better emerges in the future)

@jane

incentives have hampered every socially beneficial, anti Big Tech community project

Well it’s not incentives that’s hampering progress now, it’s rigid (misguided) ideology which serves the purposes of the powerful very nicely.

[DavidMc0]

I have no idea how you deduced that from what I said.

People with spare resources are on the supply side of the market for resources on Autonomi. They will be incentivised to use them as they’ll receive tokens that will let them upload. Give / take in balance.

Of course, some commercial players will get involved if it’s profitable, but the cost for individuals with spare resources spinning up a few nodes will be close to zero, where a commercial operation faces other costs.

[jane]

Lots of people do stuff for free, lots of open source communities, Veilid is is one of them. Its amazing how much does get done for nothing. It has to be a hobby. Like gardening. Or playing in a band for fun. And it is usually those that do that get the best results.

[jane]

@DavidMc0

It’s a good example of why an non-imcentivised decentralised data network can’t be relied on for private / less popular data, or data that needs to be available long-term.

I think a large part of that is because seeding torrents is not private/anonymous and with the current state censorship regime and scattershot DMCA threats even the most minor infringements are not worth the risk. Veilid fixes that.

[DavidMc0]

Sounds like torrent + Vailid for anonymity + Autonomi for private/long-term storage + websites etc could be amazing.

Once Veilid + Autonomi got big, maybe torrents would no longer be needed?

[jane]

I said ECONOMIC incentives.

[Traktion]

That’s fine on the small scale, but its hard to scale out. Good luck to projects that try this though.

[John]

They have a Foundation, donations are still economic incentives, just less transparent ones.

At least token holders know exactly what they’re getting. Donors have no guarantee of returns, accountability mechanisms, or governance rights. It’s arguably a worse economic model disguised as moral purity.

“Free” is a myth
Someone always pays

Veilid developers’ living expenses come from somewhere (donations, day jobs, dividends?)
Server costs, bandwidth, and infrastructure require money.
The real question isn’t “money vs. no money” - it’s transparent, aligned incentives vs. opaque funding models.

[rreive]

@zettawatt

users can store their metadata and share it with their friends, but there is no other way to discover content unless you talk to other people. With Veilid, it seems that I could bake a Veilid node into each Colony client, and as pods are updated or uploaded to the network, I could fire off a message that says ‘hey there is new stuff that somebody uploaded, check it out’ and notify other running Colony applications. Or even auto update specific pods as they are updated to get the new content. Or (eventually) users could submit updates to a central index and we could somehow use other Veilid/Colony nodes to verify and upload the data to the central index. That would be the optimal case: a single immutable, append only index referencing all of the immutable data on the network. That’s where I want to get to . But I can’t do that with Autonomi by itself, I need a layer to share live messages and perform some compute to verify submissions are valid and do the actual upload. That’s just the Colony use case. There are so many possibilities that this thing opens up. As long as it works the way I think it does, maybe I’m completely wrong, I’m still trying to understand how it works and its capabilities.

These guys operate on Gitlab, owned/controlled by Vanguard and Blackrock , just as bad as operating on Github (MS owned) they might want to consider a shift to Codeberg to stay true to their stated form and avoid getting shutdown by ‘the owners’?

[rreive]

The donor thing is a begging/beauty contest.., I’m not a fan of this model at all.

I prefer the I bought this used computer model,

and instead of the used PC depreciating in value and consuming money out of my wallet to pay for power, where its value is eroded to nothing when it wears out,

I can instead actually employ it to earn value saving encrypted data chunks for its useful life and

maybe run it as well to rent out other useful stuff running in containers at prices regular folk can afford and help others do the same, where the value they earn can be saves/staked to help others out with effectively micro loans at really low interest, or be recycled to buy more stuff to employ it to make the network more useful.

To do all of the above we need a three layer currency model with out fractionalization, perched on top of the resource value, in our case above, a fair , impartial (no beauty contest) auto assessment of its value in the context of the max work the resource can produce, which is run nodes and store chunks. (PoR Proof of Resource).

The work value potential in the context of the work to be performed (this narrows the scope of testing a lot to validate the work capability) is then auto-monetized into a Layer 1`digital money on which the other currency layers rest and depend. I am calling this NAT for now. Native Autonomi Token, the cornerstone of e commerce on the Autonomi Network is the way to look at NAT, and yes the existing $Autonomi/ANT token can and should be layer 3 just as it is designed today.

I am going to keep beating this drum until people get this four layer currency/money non-fractionalized money model and we get a core group of Autonomi community members to really do the deep dive on the materials, ask a lot of questions and then sign up for it, to build it, leveraging existing Autonomi and other FOSS stuff, for the benefit of everyone, building it right with Q-day in mind from day one..

[neo]

@jane

Money is the route of all evil and all that

That scriptural quote has been so misused to become something that no longer holds its true meaning which is way more powerful than just money is the root of all evil.

It does not have anything in it that says money itself, or the need for it, or having it, is evil at all. It is needed to balance the different needs, wants and so on. Cannot expect the programmer to be able to pay for food with programming because how much programming does the farmer need for all his crops? Or needle work, or …

That is where money fills the imbalances and is very much needed once we stopped being isolated tribes.

Rather it is the love of money and that speaks in a different vain to needing money.

You used it specifically in terms of needing to pay for things rather than bartering the same items between each other. I give you storage space and you give me storage space. That is fine if we both need the same amounts.

But is 100 other people going to host my 100TB of data, forever*, so I can not be buying more and more disks to store that data on? And thus am only supplying a couple of TB since drives are too expensive to be buying 100 TB worth to compensate others for my needs. Thus an imbalance since I want to store 100TB and growing, but will not provide even 10TB back to others, nor compute resources to the same value.

But on Autonomi the farmers are paid according to their provisions of resources, they cannot inflate their prices so the “love of money” won’t be applying and thus the evil concept is not there.

Something like Veilid using Autonomi for storage sounds like a great idea. No need to pit one against the other, we need different concepts to utilise the strengths of each other.

*forever as in live of the network.

[John]

Totally appreciate and admire the depth of thinking and work that has gone into your four-layer model and feel kinda privelaged to read it , particularly the “employed computer” framing that transforms depreciating assets into productive infrastructure.

However, this is all deeply complex legal wise (minefield), and from relationships point of view vis-a-vis Atonomi where it’s perhaps too early to judge existing tokenomics . Please tread with extreme care and caution. Only saying this because i like and admire you, the significant contributions (CanMan) and your thinking very much indeed.

[born2build]

@jane

Money is the route of all evil

Misquote. It’s the love of money which is evil. Edit: Already stated by Neo.

[jane]

I’ll never understand why software devs motivated to challenge big tech privacy intrusions use their platforms when good open alternatives already exist. Discord especially, you cant even visit discord without handing over your mobile phone number and ID. Unfortunately both autonomi and veilid use it .

[happybeing]

FWIW I’ve never given Discord my phone number. They tried suspending my account to get it, so I created a new one. Later I deleted the original and eventually got my handle back on the new account. I had to resubscribe to the servers I was using but that was easy enough.

[jane]

I can’t earn enough tokens to match the compute I give. Not even close. That is the issue. I’m all for a native token that can, and fine with purchasing tokens where I don’t have enough compute to match what I need. The ANT/ETH system we have is nothing like that, even without thinking about all the other issues that come with blockchain economics. Has there been an announcement from the team to fix this yet? Is there a plan in place? Perhaps I missed it.

[happybeing]

There is some work ongoing to enable the ETH fees to be paid in ANT, er I mean Autonomi token (wow, that trips of the tongue), but I’m not convinced it will be practical. It would be a significant improvement, but still leave us paying way more to ETH miners than Autonomi noderunners. No news for a few weeks on that.

[jane]

@neo

I give you storage space and you give me storage space. That is fine if we both need the same amounts.

This is all I want. Yet its not possible on autonomi right now. I don’t need 100 of nodes of compute. I just want to upload a few mb of data and access it once in a while. I have to spend a lot of compute resources- run dozens of nodes 24 hours a day for months and months just to earn enough to make this possible. I’m not concerned about the actual monetary value in pounds here, its a practical issue - if I’ve provided compute and storage, I should be able to upload SOMETHING for that.