Update 19th June, 2025

Do you think that this will encourage people to use the network? Having to file tax returns for uploading holiday snaps but made a bit easier?

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Well if you want to follow the letter of the law in all matters HMRC thats your choice. Are you as anal-retentive in all aspects of your interactions with society?
Trying to mind the Viz character you put me in mind of.. Sadly Category:Viz characters - Wikipedia is incomplete but he was very plooky…

But anyway from the tone of that reply, it seems you are here to disrupt, rather than add to the sum of knowledge.

I very very rarely put anyone on my ignore list but you are coming close.

Bye Now :waving_hand:

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There is an obligation to ANT holders to swap them for tokens, so that one can’t easily be reversed. However, that didn’t imply exchange support and required. Indeed, it would have strengthen the argument that people were pre-buying tokens, rather than securities.

I do think that a 1-way conversion from blockchain ANT to native ANT would be useful in many regards though. It would make it harder for folks to sell native ANT, but it would feed/seed the network with tokens to buy storage (edit: and allow people to decide much many ANT to commit to native).

I would imagine, over time, new markets to sell native ANT would open up.

Only being able to spend or earn native token would then simplify the internals greatly (edit: although native tokens needed, ofc!). It would only be the minting of blockchain to native to worry about.

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HMRC may not pay much attention to couple of non anal retentive nerds dabbling with less than ten quids worth of crypto so they can upload Simpsons memes, but thousands or millions of them, yeah, they will pay attention. You have entirely missed the point, nobody should have to fill out tax returns and the only legal solution to that is to ditch the crypto altogether ASAP. At least @ambled has seen the problem, but their solution is not going to sell the network, quite the opposite.

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Ah OK

Best you copy that directly to @Bux and @JimCollinson and tell them just why they are wrong and you are right.

Don’t forget to let us know how you get on, eh?

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I’ll add to my list of names with extreme far right terrorist :joy:

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I am right. NOBODY thinks filling out tax returns is an attractive option for posting stuff online privately or anonymously. I mean its an oxymoron anyway.

What part of

did you not understand?

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I really whacked the hornets nest here with the native token talk :rofl:. I will add I think the team is doing exactly the right thing. If I was running this project, with limited resources, and I had to pick between getting the network solidified and released early, or holding off on release to get the native token out at the same time, I would do the same thing. Who is going to move their money into a native token if the network isn’t absolutely rock solid and proven (i.e. potential token loss!)? What would they use a native token on if there weren’t apps to use? If it went the other way a whole other cadre of people would be complaining. There are no free lunches in engineering and there is no way you can make everyone happy.

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I think that is a false binary choice.

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Valid point, binary choices are typically over simplified representations of reality. How would you go about it?

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And explain your reasoning and assumed budgetary and developer resource constraints.
Then write it up and submit to @Bux, @JimCollinson et al.

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I don’t see a problem. I just don’t see any circumstance HMRC would go after you for spending to upload.

The Autonomi network isn’t even a VAT registered company so any payment I make to upload is really just throwing tokens in to a black hole with nobody on the receiving end having to declare income. I threw some coins down a wishing well on holiday, :thinking:, you got me worried… perhaps I should find out how much tax to pay on that transaction.

Transfering between personal wallets, earning tokens and selling for profit are the only transaction points I can begin to accept talking with HMRC. Which is the same for all crypto.

I don’t think HMRC deserve any tax revenue on something they behave as they don’t understand anyway. Get out of the UK.

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Well you got that bit 100% correct :slight_smile:

Not too much to argue about in the preceding sections either

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Most places is if you are running a “business/hobby” then income is revenue minus costs. So it should be easy enough to say that your hobby at this stage is node earnings - cost to upload. And lucky us here a hobby can earn 10 thousand without requiring any declarations

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Worth underscoring. I can only speak for myself but I’m mining at right around cost. Tax on 0 realized income can’t work up to much, could it?

AIUI, the cost would come if (when?) the token increases in value, I trade or pay for uploads with it, then have to calculate the capital gain and pay tax on that.

For us capital gains only kicks in when you have owned the asset for 12 months or more.

(Here) But farming is income always and not capital gains. An asset has to be bought/gifted/etc and not earned

We still pay gains on transactions that happened in less than a year, we just pay less gains if they are held over a year.

In born2builds example, consuming or trading ANT does indeed create a potentially taxable event. However, my first-in ANT have much higher basis than the current value of ANT, so I wouldn’t owe additional gains on the transaction. I can even offset my other gains with the loss from current transactions. NFA

I don’t think we have to search outside. We have many great minds here. The strategy is making them able to focus on research, developing and breaking things. And we will be better with that, because people from outside probably will need more time to familiarize with our paradigms here, and forget their own, like Solana this, Lightning Network that blah blah blah etc.

Spam and DDOS-attacks come to my mind.

Actually, they’ve been talking about two years for Native Token if I recall well.

I think you can use alpha network, probably just a post to @rusty.spork and you’ll have enough ANT+ETH to test anything you want.

And by that time, you can test Community Token.

To fill the network $136m has to be spent by users at current rates ($1/GB), if I count properly. This could take long. And it’d be $136m pumped into Arbitrum ecosystem instead Autonomi. Consider also what userbase would be needed to achieve this. I’m not surprised why people think Native Token and ditching EVM is the only way out.

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While I know ‘more blockchain’ isn’t the solution people want, an Arbitrum Orbit chain with ANT as the token of that chain should at least keep the majority of the value within the Autonomi economy as things ramp up, rather than diverting it to Ethereum / Arbitrum.

I can see this. Once decent UX is in place, the reliance on Arbitrum will be a big economic brake on the growth of the network and use cases where it makes sense. Being able to pay ETH fees with ANT via paymasters will help the user experience, but won’t solve the economic issue of value leaving the ecosystem.

I hope you’re able to continue with your work despite the low level of financial support from the community to date. I will try to support more when I can.

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