Update 13th March, 2025

Thanks to all who attended Discord Stages on Wednesday where @bux and the team answered some of your questions. For those who missed it here’s a summary.

Quotes and emissions
The initial plan was to distribute approximately 54,000 ANT tokens per day, selecting 100 random nodes every minute and awarding each with 0.38 ANT. Recently, retrieving quotes from the Network has taken significantly longer. As a result, the reward interval was extended from one minute to two minutes, and we compensated by doubling the reward per selected node from ~0.38 ANT to ~0.76 ANT. This reduced the likelihood of any given node receiving a reward, but the issue has now been fixed and we are back to the one minute interval. However, it’s important to note that with up to 40 million nodes, the chance for smaller node operators to receive rewards is still low.

Backwards compatibility
After more rewards testing, we will push an update next week that relates to relay nodes rewards and backwards compatibility. We want to ensure that the network rewards nodes that act as relays for other nodes to connect. This is expected to boost upgrades as you can essentially make more from just upgrading - and we would always rather use a carrot than a stick for such ‘nudges’. Please upgrade!!

Uploads
Not enough nodes have been responding to requests for quotes, leading to uploads failing. The reasons seem to be:
Quoting timeout, which didn’t present as an error to end users but was an underlying cause.
Chunk proof validation, which is where an upload would “succeed” but then couldn’t be retrieved, rendering it useless.
The issue not showing up a serious on our testnets, the hypothesis being that the scale of the network is also a factor (30M+ nodes on main, versus 2K nodes on test). That said, we have been able to reproduce these errors locally, so we have something to go on.

Whales
It has been suggested that we reduce emissions and distribute them over a longer period, to reduce the incentive for large operators. However, we cannot put our thumb on the scale here - someone earns proportionally to what they put into the system. We always prefer carrots to sticks (see above), and once the demand side kicks in with new apps and awareness of Autonomi increases we expect to see the distribution start to balance out.

Partners
Partners like FYEO with their Breach Database of 29 billion credentials, have large amounts of data (30PB) that they ready to upload once the issues are fixed.

Persistence
Once we get uploads working flawlessly we will move to testing downloads. This will require an enormous amount of kicking and punching on the network to determine whether we hit 100/100 or a million out of a million every time, a 1 in a million fail is still a fail in this scenario. Only when we are happy will we be able to state that data is persistent.

REST API?
We’re focused on fundamentals right now, which includes tools for others - specifically APIs, documentation and standards. REST would be a gateway (as it needs a server running it) so it would be something MaidSafe could develop and community deploy, or it could be that a separate commercial entity builds one.

Impossible Futures

We have launched out Impossible Futures programme and a very early version of the website with $100,000 plus 1.5 million ANT available to backers and builders. We are consulting now on the defining the qualifying criteria. It will use an Alpha net - we have not deployed this yet, but it will be deployed ready for use April 22.

Programme rewards
Builders will be awarded with around 50% of the USDC pool (based on number of ‘verified/qualified’ participants). Backers will be awarded with around 50% of USDC pool (based on final builders’ allocation) and 100% of ANT pool, plus ANT incentives for using ANT to vote.

Builders:

  • Apply to develop a proof of concept ‘POC’ (on the testnet)
  • Compete to produce a working application (on the testnet)
  • Qualify for rewards pool via successful ‘verified’ deployment (mainnet)

Backers:

  • Post 2 week testnet backers are able to vote for their favourite POCs
  • Top 12 POCs that go to next stage can have token locked against them
  • At the end of the development window in phase 2 backers can vote (50:50, votes:judges) on the programme winners.

General progress

@rusty.spork is planning more outreach activities, including (hopefully) an AMA in the near future.

@anselme has uncovered a bug with serialisation of XorNames, and made a documented fix around that. This should come in handy for community members using the CLI as an app debugger, as they can now analyse any address thus:

ant analyze 360597a525a9900770c5f6716a0a406a0bea10a2dbe1abe5be9f1b0b0f993851

@bzee worked on Node.js bindings and pushed some updates, but it still needs some more work to set the basics for tests and docs.

@qi_ma raised a PR which seems to improve the quoting performance in the production network significantly, and another to further improve the cost estimation efficiency. He also raised a third PR which during devnet runs, we have encouragingly seen no upload failures so far.

@chriso worked on the latest realease which includes the improved cost estimation and client quoting performance PRs from Qi, on top of many other tweaks and refinements.

In our testing so far, the ‘not enough quotes’ and ‘chunk proof verification’ errors have been eliminated. That doesn’t mean it will hold true on the much bigger production environment, but it should hopefully be a significant improvement, with less time for nodes to supply quotes for storing data. We hope this will translate into quicker and significantly more reliable uploads.

@dirvine has been working through a number of customisations to raw Kademlia that we can experiment with to improve network performance.

Ermine continued debugging the node spawner issue on the CI. The sender and receiver verification is not properly working for the client attempting to connect to nodespawner.

@mick.vandijke has been active on Discord answering queries about gas fee limits in Ant (client) 0.3.8. He explains

A GWEI is 0.000000001 ETH. WEI is just a name for the smallest ETH unit. There is a default limit of 0.2 GWEI per gas of a transaction.

You can see gas like an action point. A transaction on EVM costs a base amount of action points. Doing additional actions inside a transaction (like token transfers) will cost more action points / gas. For the amount of action points you use per transaction, you will have to pay a certain amount of ETH (in WEI/GWEI, which is just a tiny amount of ETH).

If the network is really congested and the price per gas goes above the limit of 0.2 GWEI per gas, the transaction will now fail as of v0.3.8, unless you specify a higher limit using --max-fee-per-gas <WEI>

As a rough estimate, uploading 4 chunks will cost about 1 million gas.

Mick also raised a couple of PRs [1] [2] and updated the node emission service to retry unexpected failed payments within payout rounds (unexpected fails are insufficient gas fees & gas fee above limit).

Lajos has been looking at the token demand and thinking about adjustments to the smart contracts and awards to incentivise app builders.

@roland fixed a bug that saw testnet nodes dialling mainnet contacts, and worked on changes to automatic NAT detection.

@shu along with @roland and @qi continue to look into node updates and backward compatibility.

And Victor continues to work on the Python client API.

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first :rofl: I see you typing @Southside lol :rofl:

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Second !!!
Thanks to everyone involved as always

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@aatonnomicc has obv just emerged from the subway, im still on the bus home.

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Thanks so much to the entire Autonomi team for all of your hard work! :sweat_droplets:

:thankyou:

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Is my math really bad?

54,000 * 365 = 19,710,000

But the whitepaper says 10,000,000 in the first year, am I reading it wrong?

@Bux why have we doubled the emmisions that the whitepaper says?

There is a finite amount allocated to emissions, doing this messes the entire schedule up.

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Who says there will be 54K ANT distributed every day for the first year?

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Why would it be reduced as the network gets used more. That is the exact opposite of yearly increase that is pictured in the chart, it increases for the first 7 years.

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@bux what @Josh says whats the game plan there ?

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I am going to be frank, flooding the market with almost double the amount of emissions stated in the WP feels like a big fu to people who have supported this project for over a decade.

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Thx 4 the update Maidsafe devs

I’ll share

@ https://replit.discourse.group

Will also link to this forum for questions

This could maybe be a handy way to upload to the Network

Keep hacking super ants

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Amazing work as always team! I love the new website too!

Can it be that since many node runners are under resourcing their nodes to max out emission rewards, probably millions of nodes that are just 1 GB, that the quoting is timing out because the nodes just don’t have enough storage allocation? If so, would the fix not be to force CLI nodes to be the required 38 GB?

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Seems like a lot of overlap of impossible Futures and what the BGF was supposed to do. Whats the status of the BGF and what are the plans here going forward?

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dweb includes, among other things a server with REST API which I’ve started to built out, and today got my second web app working on it. AntTP, also includes something similar.

Autonomi may be surprised to learn this, or…?

As for the dweb server, I spent a lot of time in recent weeks completely changing how this works so that a user can do without any configuration.

Just dweb serve, and in another terminal dweb open awesome.

That opens your browser with a website on Autonomi containing links to community sites and my first two web apps (names for public sites and directories, and a read only file manager).

Or rather, this would be available if I could upload. So fingers crossed that uploads are much improved, but early reports seem to contradict the “we’re not seeing any problems” from Autonomi. We’ve heard this so many times it gets very frustrating, and I do wonder how this is being tested internally. Perhaps that’s what needs looking at as much as anything? Because you cannot fix what you cannot see.

Anyway, great to see the IF initiative for builders and the focus on uploads. These really are the key to progress right now. Builders will be vital to progressing, helping Autonomi find and fix bugs and to making the network viable. I’ve been saying that for almost a year, so hopefully it’s happening at last.

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I’d love to see the Bamboo Garden Fund fund the native token in parallel with the team’s current efforts. Not sure if that would be acceptable or not but I thought I’d throw it out there as ERC20 is a huge bottleneck in the system. David had said he was open using any token that could do the job whether developed in house or by an external team. What do our folk think?

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Imho we now need a reliable network, APIs and developers for apps … When the network works reliably and performant we can think about the token…the erc20 is annoying and quite expensive in comparison but not the element stopping us right now…

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I also thought this, but maybe they are referring to a network, where all the nodes run the latest software? I hope the plan to get the live network nodes upgraded works.

And anyway, it would be great if they could test RC’s in a way that’s a bit closer to the live network. It sure is frustrating to time and again hear “it’s solved!”, just to find out on your first own trial, that it’s not, and might actually be even worse. Maybe the RC’s could be just tried with any laptop against the live network? The recent problems have been so widespread, that I think it needs a really special context to not see them.

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I agree with you that we need a reliable network. It should be the priority but the Bamboo could in parallel to these efforts fund the token development. This way the work on a reliable network is not comprised by the development the native token. With the native token this network becomes unstoppable and I’m confident that team will resolve the issues we are seeing now.

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I see your point - I just don’t think any money should be spent there right now… Way nicer to push development further…

As nice as the builders program is… A significant amount of the investment is going to locked token stuff and not to the devs… And with those couple of k of rewards this will only attract smallish short running development projects of limited scope - while the bamboo fund could focus on larger topics… (yes the coin is a larger topic… Still I would like to see others being prioritised… We have a reliable and fastish coin now …we don’t have a dedicated browser, language APIs, nodes on mobile (?), mobile app development, a feature rich websites building suite (app as immutable data), a messenger protocol, a compute market place that drives trustless smart contracts that can do stuff,…)

The only dev reward someone applying really can calculate with are the 250 + 500 usdc because you’ll either get them and start the project or you don’t and then you may not start it… People participating in this program won’t/cannot do it for the token/money :wink:

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