Given phones will only run one or two nodes, having them wake up only when the phone is plugged in and has charged to 100% might be a good approach.
3 Likes
On reflection @Josh I think you make a good point and will be more will get less into talk about VPS. I had started to worry about what will happen after beta rewards end, regardless of VPS, but the more VPS the bigger the issue.
So maybe we should start to talk about that. To understand what we know about that transition better, the ways it might play out and how we can help.
I’ve been very caught up in both working on my demo and all the excitement so haven’t thought about it properly.
8 Likes
Hmm - for me running a couple of vps even in the long run is surely cheaper than getting a slightly faster Internet and running nodes locally (coming with electricity and hardware costs) …
So I’m not convinced vps will be shutdown on network launch… On launch nodes will start to earn real nanos… And the network will start issuing coin to the nodes as subsidy that slowly gets reduced over the years…
I will leave my vps running for at least a couple of months after launch to see where I end up… I’d expect at a win to be honest… (vps with shared cpu are somehow spare resources as well… Just like your toaster running a node… They are pretty price competitive …especially when you factor in electricity and bandwidth cost… )
A game changer to me ofc still would be the availability of symmetric fibre… But that’s not gonna happen soonish… (and as mentioned I’m not convinced this really will be needed after network launch to run at a profit)
11 Likes
I understand the people who can get fiber connections with fast internet and unlimited bandwith. In that case they don’t need vps but only more expensive router and you can run 200 nodes with 300/300mbits connection without interrupting anything that uses your internet connection from home on mid end pc. But what about the folks who can’t get internet connections better than vdsl 40/20 mbits but they had two or three pcs available to run about 600 nodes? They are simply forced to buy vps. When you do the calcs, vps which can run 35 nodes for 7usd/month will surely be cheaper option for vdsl users because they will need another internet connection for 30 usd /month on 4g or 5g to surf the internet not for nodes so they could use vdsl for running nodes because vdsl can’t cover more than 20 nodes with that bandwith.
5 Likes
I think the phone app idea is a winner if you can run a couple of nodes on an old phone that can sit beside the router it means the whole world pretty much can get involved with out and fancy kit or ability’s.
nearly everyone has an old phone in a drawer 
14 Likes
@qi_ma you may be aware but just in case. Others have reported this to with transfers:
I had trouble claiming a transfer yesterday, some time-outs, record not found, not enough copies (2 of 5) etc.
My mobile was saying 4G all fine, my WiFi signal was full. But web pages were really slow so I moved my phone, airplane mode off/on and bingo.
So client connectivity issues can it seems produce misleading errors.
3 Likes
The concern is the extent to which people will stretch their budget on vps only for the competition period.
They will be much more conservative after.
Now it is a gold rush and level headed decisions are not being made.
So again the concern I have is what happens to all of those nodes the day the competition ends.
The issue grows as we introduce more people to the vps idea for this beta rewards period.
Those live network tokens will be worth zero if we are not level headed about this and actively promoting what will be a mass shutdown of a large portion of the network in the end.
The participants would be far more likely to keep a pi and 10 nodes running after, if that is how we steered and taught them.
Anyhow the incentive is there, I hope that I am wrong.
5 Likes
Ok, really thx for sharing such info.
I wonder how much storage the Network got in exchange for the current rewards.
I would suggest giving 1 nano per 1 TB, that way you ensure the Network grows (by people who want to see it trully grow).
Unfun fact, besides nodes maybe dissapearing, we might also have a sell off in october.
Fun fact, I got my first 20 nanos 
5 Likes
You’re welcome, and thanks to you and everyone working behind the scenes. But there’s more!
I have an app which I’ve written which is uploading a bunch of small files: 8 HTML pages and two (I think) small images. In total 20 tiny chunks.
My app of course uses the Autonomi libraries and much of the output such as the upload summaries come directly from that. It also has an ‘estimate’ mode like the safe files command.
So far I’ve spent about 6,000 donated nanos trying to upload this and each time the cost I’m charged is way higher than the estimate, and as a result I’ve spent almost 1,000 nanos per chunk. So only 7 of 20 chunks has gone through.
The estimate varies, but so far has always been between 300 and 750 nanos for all 20 chunks.
My own nodes are all charging <100 nanos / chunk, most still at 10 per chunk, so there’s a big discrepancy. It could be something I’m doing wrong in the app, but it seems unlikely and the upload summary does report that these charges are indeed very high. I haven’t kept them all but this is one from this morning.
It is also not really consistent with itself. I’ve included two runs below, and the summary in each case contains numbers that don’t seem to add up, and don’t match what has been paid out from my wallet.
I began with 3,530 nanos.
The first attempt (immediately below) has 15/20 chunks remaining to be uploaded. The output shows that I got two more chunks uploaded at a cost of 368 and says I have 3,108 left. That suggests all the remaining chunks are being priced at >3,108.
Connecting to the network using 50 peers
Uploading website from: "/home/mrh/src/safe-browser/aweb-sites/testnet-sites/autonomi-demo/v1-autonomi-demo"
"/home/mrh/src/safe-browser/aweb-sites/testnet-sites/autonomi-demo/v1-autonomi-demo" will be made public and linkable
Splitting and uploading "/home/mrh/src/safe-browser/aweb-sites/testnet-sites/autonomi-demo/v1-autonomi-demo" into 20 chunks
Failed to store website content. Failed to upload chunk batch: The upload failed with maximum repayments reached for multiple items: [0919a5(00001001).., 1f83d2(00011111).., 2c7759(00101100).., 4c5cef(01001100).., 59ec4a(01011001).., 6928c3(01101001).., 7fd74d(01111111).., b16223(10110001).., b6e284(10110110).., eb2d60(11101011).., f9e1e2(11111001).., fdd8c1(11111101).., fe0d0b(11111110)..] Summary: UploadSummary { storage_cost: NanoTokens(368), royalty_fees: NanoTokens(54), final_balance: NanoTokens(3108), uploaded_addresses: {NetworkAddress::ChunkAddress(07cb78 - 09510b2accf250e643d5dec2b1089d4f07f0650c633a515f187839cabab65267), NetworkAddress::ChunkAddress(09915f - f30f9f4bd9090588c68e14462876378d4c318185a5bbd73a7ed42a9504d2d2d7), NetworkAddress::ChunkAddress(7f6bed - ee8e6fa644bc5469410ef3a2c605f222bc799f3a0f9552911a20b0e154f5c087), NetworkAddress::ChunkAddress(b1ccf5 - b8746738095ee66d3beb9706db6b6b1fb8c218d91ec39e9b060a472125b48c91), NetworkAddress::ChunkAddress(df58de - 80d42cc9be4413cb769a0698f81c1970184c046d4489a54283366092b305efb0), NetworkAddress::ChunkAddress(e0c372 - bcfad66c0bc0819575e3b9e04a51b409d5bd9d0b0480c80d161ad8b85945c4a9), NetworkAddress::ChunkAddress(f738a5 - 8f10abb1e7bf0149f7436f203f7b7c8097644203a45091425bc6e8126d17c08b)}, uploaded_registers: {}, uploaded_count: 2, skipped_count: 5 }
Publish ERROR: failed to read register address from: testoutput/site-autonomi-demo-register-community.txt
Publish failed on attempt 1
Trying to publish autonomi-demo again...
After the above my upload script tried again and the output is below. This says the storage cost was 671 even though no chunks were uploaded, and subsequent runs are consistent with that, all trying to upload 13 remaining chunks.
Meanwhile after the run below my wallet contains 980 nanos, even though the above says it had 3,108 after uploading two chunks, and the below says it should be 2,328 after uploading zero chunks.
Maybe I’m misinterpreting this output but it seems to merit a look! And the amounts being deducted from my wallet seem way out, so several issues:
- seemingly very high cost of most chunks
- discrepancies between what is reportedly happening and what is happening, both in terms of chunks being charged for that are not uploaded, and the expected wallet balance afterwards versus what is in fact left.
- EDIT: the discrepancy between estimated and actual cost. This might be a useful clue as to what’s going on here.
Connecting to the network using 50 peers
Uploading website from: "/home/mrh/src/safe-browser/aweb-sites/testnet-sites/autonomi-demo/v1-autonomi-demo"
"/home/mrh/src/safe-browser/aweb-sites/testnet-sites/autonomi-demo/v1-autonomi-demo" will be made public and linkable
Splitting and uploading "/home/mrh/src/safe-browser/aweb-sites/testnet-sites/autonomi-demo/v1-autonomi-demo" into 13 chunks
Failed to store website content. Failed to upload chunk batch: The upload failed with maximum repayments reached for multiple items: [0919a5(00001001).., 1f83d2(00011111).., 2c7759(00101100).., 4c5cef(01001100).., 59ec4a(01011001).., 6928c3(01101001).., 7fd74d(01111111).., b16223(10110001).., b6e284(10110110).., eb2d60(11101011).., f9e1e2(11111001).., fdd8c1(11111101).., fe0d0b(11111110)..] Summary: UploadSummary { storage_cost: NanoTokens(671), royalty_fees: NanoTokens(109), final_balance: NanoTokens(2328), uploaded_addresses: {}, uploaded_registers: {}, uploaded_count: 0, skipped_count: 0 }
FYI: I understand that @aatonnomicc saw similar discrepancies and high storage costs when he was using the Autonomi client to upload BegBlag. Though in that case the cost per chunk wasn’t as high as I’m experiencing.
8 Likes
Yeah, I understand, that was my point a week ago, glad that I managed to open the eyes.
2 Likes
One solution to promote using home resources could be if it is possible to know if people run VPS then it could have less weight than running nodes from home, example running VPS could be weighted 0,5-0,75 of nano earnings. I am just thinking out loud but that would give incentive to run nodes from home. Those fighting for top position in ranks, with dedicated servers, would still beat almost anyone running nodes from home.
hey has anyone on here setup the node manager using win 11? I’m a bit confused and dont know where to start I successfully installed it but dont know where to go from there?
1 Like
Ok here are some ideas to ensure the continued growth of the Autonomi network post-launch, some strategies to incentivize participation:
(These ideas are only needed until the value of nanos reaches the incentive tipping point to be attractive to everyone.)
-
Enhanced Utility for Nanos:
- Marketplace: Create a marketplace where node participants can use their specific nanos to buy goods or services, making them more valuable. Probably not going to be ready at launch.
- Staking Rewards: Allow users to stake their nanos to earn interest or additional rewards.
-
Tiered Reward System:
- Milestone Rewards: Offer additional rewards for participants who reach specific milestones, such as uptime, data storage, or transaction volume.
- Loyalty Program: Implement a loyalty program where long-term participants earn extra benefits or higher value nanos.
-
Community Engagement and Development:
-The longer you run a node, you get more network respect, which will lead to greater rewards.
-
Continue referrals
- Referral Programs: referral program where existing participants earn rewards for bringing in new members.
-
Partnerships and Integrations will help:
- Strategic Partnerships: which is already in the works: Forming partnerships with other networks or platforms integrates services, increasing the utility and visibility of the Autonomi network.
- Cross-Chain Compatibility: Ensure compatibility with other blockchain networks to attract users from different ecosystems.
-
Enhanced Network Features:
- Exclusive Features: Offer exclusive features or premium services for active node operators.
- Performance Bonuses: Reward participants based on the performance and reliability of their nodes.
-
Community and Social Rewards:
- Social Recognition:people are competitive no matter what, continue social recognition through leaderboards, badges, or public acknowledgments for top contributors.
- Community Events: Host events, contests, or hackathons to engage the community and keep interest high.
I think Implementing a combination of these strategies can help maintain and even boost the growth of the Autonomi network post-launch, ensuring that participants continue to see value in running nodes and contributing to the ecosystem. Just some ideas, cheers
6 Likes
Here is a business idea 
. Run owenerless nodes now, almost certain you will find buyers for those nanos!! 
$5 for 1000 nanos feels about 
9 Likes
I have been thinking about something. What happens after the nodes are full, how does those running nodes keep earning to pay for expenses and make some profit?
Right now the network is pay once store forever and get paid once pay for costs forever.
The most optimal solution seems to have a like a transaction cost for every transaction that happens on the network, like 0,05%-0,2%. That would please the fundamentals of the network not charge people for surfing on Autonomi but when transactions happens then a small percent goes towards the node operators. BTC and Etherum have large daily volumes, so it would collect quite high sum everyday.
BTC and Ethereum benefits those moving large sums but punishing those who move small sums, this would be the other way around. Also it can be capped to like 0,05-0,02% or 100 Maid max.
1 Like
hey can anyone help me running the safenode manager on win 11?
I installed it and added some service (i think lol) but I’m getting an error.
1 Like
New data arrives all the time, more nodes are needed to store it and as new nodes join existing data is spread around more thinly.
That creates free space on existing nodes, and both existing and new nodes have the same chance of being paid for new chunks.
There is no full.
4 Likes
Churn. When nodes leave there is a season churn churn churn. Your nodes will earn with churn?
Nodes are only paid for new chunks. Churn happens as nodes leave and join, but doesn’t result in payments.