Pay once store forever

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What makes you think this is likely?

As soon as storage cost starts to rise due to demand out weighing supply for a time, nodes will join until the store cost / node earnings falls to the level where supply more closely = demand.

Volatility should be very low once the network is well established, as even a very busy upload day for the network won’t hugely shift the level of spare capacity on the network… many weeks would start to shift the needle, and node operators would respond as they would be incentivised to.

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if this topic keeps going on i’ll write a python script that uses an LLM to automatically keeps my views represented in the discussion and responds to the participants in this thread :open_mouth: …

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Put me down for a copy of that when it’s done :joy:

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I’ve always wanted to self host (at home) all my data, images, documents etc including email and access it remotely as needed. Setting this up is not particularly difficult and the costs of running the server are very low (Raspberry Pi will do the job). BUT reliability is a major issue. If you have a power cut, or hard drive failure, software bug, security update etc that fails it can be catastrophic. For this reason self hosting just isn’t a good solution to corporate hosted alternatives. What appeals to me about Autonomi is that it by passes this problem with all the benefits of private self hosting. I can still use the same hardware, but if it fails I know the data is still safely replicated until I get it back online again. My incentive to host a node is not financial but technical. I want reliability, the cost of hosting my data at home is already negligible. I don’t care if I’m paid nothing to host other peoples data. The value is in knowing we are protecting each other’s data. Of course this is a specific use case, I don’t need more than a 1-2tb for my photos/drive etc. What if to store stuff permanently on Autonomi you are required to provide say 5x storage of what you upload (for replications) with a downtime of no more than one month. No costs or coins exchange hands. This is more analogous to torrent sharing…

Separately users without hardware can pay in nanos, but it can only ever be temporary (unless they make further payments to the network) at an agreed time.

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I have no idea how dynamic this will be, in principle the costs should stay stable, but that is also true of mining fees in bitcoin in principle, but they don’t. The lag between available storage and demand could shift the price all over the place.

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This will be somewhat noticeable in a small network, but once it is more established then the amount of storage available will help absorb any sudden increase in stores.

The rising price at those times will work to encourage the person(s) doing the large uploads to space out their uploads due to the increasing cost. They would likely only see rising costs due to their uploads in a small network. In a more mature network it’ll be the drop in the bucket style of situation.

Also remember that people can only upload at their upload speeds available. Maybe 1Gbps upload (approx 100MB/s) assuming uploads can be made that fast with paying for chunks and so on. Its unlikely anyone will be able to max out their uplink with data being stored.

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Screenshot from 2024-09-06 18-40-48
Dai: Decentralize AI

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The price to upload should remain close to cost for the node operators … unless the network is collapsing because nodes are leaving - which won’t happen if people are uploading lots of data. The troubles occur if users slow their uploads dramatically over a relatively long period of time.

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18 posts were split to a new topic: Resource and payment atomicity

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No one can tell the price from Beta, the pricing algo can be adjusted to anything at any time. With 4 copies, store forever, cpu, ram, hdd and bandwidth + profit, would not surprise me if price per GB will be at least 5-10 times the price per GB if you bought a new hdd today, if not subsidiesed early in the life of the network.

I would expect to not copy every junk from a computer to Autonomi but more like the most precious cute cat pics.

When discussing price it is easier if people use a stable well known value example $.

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I spent a bit of time catching up on this thread, wow…

My two nanos below as it pertains to the cost of HD storage and where the tech is going… its all good for Autonomi Network. :wink:

Just sayin, all of us might want to consider the technology of storage keeping ‘data forever’ is becoming capacity dense with faster access, more rapidly then most of us realize, given the current HD tech is really not optimized to last a life time of say 100 years, and the current software speed of access is only 20% of the what the actual HD media speed is capable of in terms of WRITE speeds(Uploads). Read speeds(playback) are just fine even on PCIe Gen4 with your HDs connected via an X4 lane.

There is good news coming as Really low cost Shingled Media Record SMR HDs are just starting to show up. WDC and Seagate originally thought this tech would be slow, 4X slower than current CMR (Common Media Record) HDs we all use today, but these vendors have been proved otherwise by new and continuing software improvements to speed the Flash Translation Layer that now sees the speed the same for SMR as it is for today’s CMR Common Media Record HDs we all use, where SMR promises much greater capacity at at least 35% lower cost this year, so that part of the market is changing fast.

With the above advancements in SDR, we can all expect to change the storage type utilitzed for ‘store for ever’ every 5-10 years because HD media does wear out, changing that old tech to much lower cost read/write performant SMR HDs (keeps your Autonomi safenodes from getting shunned for being slow to respond to connections becaue HDs are the speed bottleneck in any system, leaving more CPU clock to do relays of copies, etc…,).

So expect your curent HD tech to replaced by technology which is 4X faster (3 to 5 years) which will be at least 4X more capacity dense with typically 2X to 4X better price performance emerging in the next few years.

Given the past historic trendline for price/performance of HD storage,

the HD price/perforrmance and capacity set of changes will occur across the Autonomi Network sporadically over time in the next few years and be massively parallel, which means the ‘cost to store for ever’ will drop as that denser capacity is added in larger amounts collectively over time to the Autonomi Network.

My own observations about physical storage units tells me when they get built they fill up fast especially when the annual or 2,3 or five year charge rate is low.

Why? It’s human nature to hoard everything, IF there is enough cheap space to do it. We humans like our stuff around, even from child hood. :wink:

Autonomi Network won’t be any different, with us humans wanting to save pictures and videos, and ebooks etc,

without the hassle of upgrading their own hardware to expand capacity or move their stuff before their own storage breaks (and it will break).

So provided Autonomi Network is conventient, easy to use and low cost, regardless from which device or system you are uploading that stuff to be stored forever, my prediction is humans,

should they become aware of Autonomi Network (the big and real challenge) and,

find it easy to adopt(with the convenience and low cost mentioned above),

a big mass of online humans will start uploading lots of their stuff to the Autonomi Network.

It will be a Tsunami not seed in the digital world, IF we all work together to get the covenience, easy and low cost thing right.

The economics of new SMR HD storage hardware will help too at some point in the near future…

Heck even flash NVME tech price/performance AND capacity is falling really fast in price and that will help some too.

The other factor is PCIe Gen5 has doubled the bus speed and is now shipping, which means the X4 lane speed to the HD has doubled.

the latter Gen5 to be replaced by a doubling of bus speed again with PCIe Gen6 in just two years!

ant that makes the X4 lane connected to your Hard Disk Drive also go 4X faster within 3 years, from what it is today to make the cheap SMR HDs with tons of capacity, lower the overall cost of storage by at least 4X in the next 2 to 3 years when uploading to same on the Autonomi Network.

That means Autonomi Clients paying once to store their vast libraries long play Videos in 1024/2K/4K format and one day in 8K format for very little cost with performant play(read) speed, will become a reality, faster than most of think it will.

Autonomi Network is gonna be great if we get this right, working together!

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I thought SMR only equated to a ~25% gain and that was at the cost of a lot of speed … even if they manage to increase that speed a lot, shouldn’t it be no better than regular HDD’s? It seems like such drives would be good for :ant: - especially if low cost and can be tweaked to use less power - go idle when not in use. Power consumption is a big issue here and given the shuttering of power plants while demand is going up, power costs are going to go up for a long time.

All up though, I reckon low power machines with fast access/response times are going to be better for :ant: - so SSD’s probably not HDD’s.

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Another thought today … and not 100% on this yet, but deduplication may enhance my cascade collapse hypothesis i.e. make it more likely.

Deduplication means much less data stored when people upload the same identical files. Initially, when the network is birthed there could be a large amount of this type of data - imagine everyone uploading the blu-ray of the Star Wars series for example. This is great for nodes as they get paid but don’t have to store as much data -far less in fact. This means much higher profits in the early days … but in a few years time these profit margins will level out as all that old data is already on the network.

Another random thought - unrelated though - about caching and copy number adjustments. Could copy number increase when someone uploads a file that has already been uploaded? e.g. +0.2 for each duplicated chunk, thus every 5 repeats increases copy number. That seems like it may be a reasonable way to reduce the need for caching for a popular file - assuming repeated upload is a proxy for popularity. But I suppose that would entail some sort of chunk tracking which maybe isn’t possible.

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Expect the price for SMR to be 35% cheaper really fast. That said, you have to add a third party LKM as a software drive comtroller and bypass the hdw controller to reach old CMR top speeds on current HDDs, which is what I am part of with a few others for a day job living. Current HDW Controller HDD logic is arcane at best and really slow.

The choice of File System matters as well, ZFS for examp[e we have tested to be incredibly wasteful with as much as 27X write amplification in certain use cases, wastes alot of power and time(much slower under load and when capacity is 50% full) as well as wastes alot of capacity. It really is SUN old school…,

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