It is traded in UniSwap at a price of 14 cents at the moment:
I can’t believe this thread is still going.
If there is excess cash after delivering on the project he should keep it.
Keep it and do as he pleases. Start more software projects… or retire, up to him.
Seneca could have put crypto funds in to Euros as a precaution to guarantee that there were funds to complete the project… crypto is unstable… what would happen in this case? Go after him for the difference in bitcoin appreciation that an investor handed over.
Bitcoin could have crashed… and what… go after the loss of fiat appreciation.
Senece actually can’t win in any situation if someone is dead set on squeezing out compensation for an apparent opportunity lost… in fiat or bitcoin gains/losses.
Keeping it in fiat, or in crypto are both risks… he took a risk keeping it ALL in crypto. I think he should have sold half immediately after raising funds, 50/50 split.
Actually, he should probably sell 50% right now and put it in a bank, it’s a great development pot he has there - will bitcoin continue to store value? Eggs in one basket and all that…
We all make decisions with the fiat value at the time, and are happy with that value at the time. If the people running the project decide to keep that value in crypto, or fiat, or invest it in how they see fit to keep a very comfortable war chest - good luck to them and well done!!
… and we have seen output from that team, they have helped maidsafe with funds, they have not run off and spent funds or frittered it away, they are waiting now for a more stable network to develop on.
I’d have been far far better off if I kept my bitcoins instead of buying maidsafe - if I really believed in the future price of bitcoin, I would have kept a little aside or bought a lot more bitcoins. My investment decisions are my own - i’m not going to go after maidsafe for the fiat loss on bitcoin, no way!!!
We all are comfortable with the fiat value we invest at the time, after all we all earn in fiat.
Seneca does not run an investment fund, so bitcoins went up in price - if people didn’t hold on to extra bitcoins at the time, well… that’s not senecas fault - and running after his development pot, which I think will fund great things in the future, is a little green eye monster really…
I don’t think seneca should give any back, certainly not more than the fiat value at the time. Getting fiat value back would be more than generous… taking into account banking fees, and the terrible interest rates, a bank would return less to you.
Bitcoin is going to crash hard at some point when everyone understands the safenetwork is better in every single way.
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The money is his, he can buy other people’s tokens with it or whatever he decides. What is not right is for these other people to be left to pressure him at what price to buy them.
I think you miss the fact that we got our tokens right away and many of us got between x10-x30 in fiat from them. No one waited for the project to end to speculate, you could and can speculate on trading them in UniSwap.
#MeToo @Seneca has obviously proved his integrity, has said nothing that he didn’t say at the time of the crowdsale and has only mis-spoken once since these attacks were launched on him IMHO he should have said nothing and made no commitment to buying back anything. You bought PDC? You got PDC which may be more valuable in the future then it is now.
END OF STORY. Its crypto, its the Wild West still. Just thank your lucky stars you are dealing with a man of talent and integrity like @Seneca
None of the delays to Decorum can be laid at @Seneca’s feet, none. So those wanting a refund and stirring up trouble here are the bad actors, greed driven chancers who think they see an opportunity to make a fast buck where their own efforts have failed.
Shut this thread now, please mods.
EDIT:
DISCLOSURE: I owned around 100k PDC and lost almost them all in the Great Poloniex Margin Trading FuckUp of 2017. I now have around 1000PDC… Was hodling then, will hodl now.
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Imagine… if he does buy back some PDC, then the coin rockets on safenet launch… just imagine the complaints after… he can’t win.
PDC was doing very well in fiat value… and I am convinced it will in the future.
We are seeing an uptick in maidsafe price the closer to release, which will rub off on to all projects associated with the safenetwork… including PDC.
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Who’s to say? What if he wants to poach Facebook employees or do a worldwide marketing campaign? He could do a lot more positive things with the extra funds (thanks to his speculation and self control) or he could waste it but the latter seems unlikely given his frugal and responsible approach. Other projects went guns blazing and the money is gone so no one can even bother asking for it back. I bought PDC and some may think it was a negligible amount but I also sold it. I invested in Maidsafe shares on a platform I can’t even log into and that BTC is worth many many many multiples more. Maidsafe still have runway, should I ask for the BTC amount I sent them back? I get that what Decorum has is deemed as “extra” because it was more than they thought they would raise or needed but literally every project around 2017 raised more than they needed, like EOS! They had basically no cap just a time limit along with others.
I fully sympathize with people needing or wanting the money they spent long ago because it’s still where they sent it but it’s not par for the course in the crypto sphere or ICO’s.
These kinds of questions along with the whole argument itself really are naturally subjective so need solid arguments. I haven’t really heard any in my subjective opinion.
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I fear for the crypto community at times. Too many times it has morphed from a let’s do this and see what happens into then folk who change the parameters to make it as though they bought shares in a business and not only that but a publicly listed one that pays dividends.
On other occasions complex arguments and pleading to get cash based on personal stuff. I remember a guy who went apeshit at us when the crowdsale was finished and was crying, now my wife will die, she needs medical treatment etc. I find that side a terrible thing as the only successful targets these folk have will be the nice decent people that care.
I see the same since even our crowdsale where folk talk of class action suits and so on.
So decent folk trying to do stuff get clobbered.
Then there is the converse where there have been ICOs that are scams and break this to pieces.
So bad supporters (I feel investors term causes confusion, although it is investment) on one side who just keep wanting money and bad projects on the other who try to take money and run.
Now what’s happened is the governments and regulators have stepped in to say here are the ground rules. I wish this was not the case but it is and who knows it may even be a good thing. I am not sure the % of bad supporters or projects are needed before we need “protection”.
It really is a damn shame, crypto started something real, something honest and where people did give others tokens freely. Now though as the price of crypto shoots up even some (I hope a small amount) of the early decent folk have become predatory.
The other issue is when folk see $ in their eyes it’s all that matters, to hell with the projects, to hell with the needy, I want it all I just do it’s mine “my precious” and then we end up in discussions that never ends. As the greed of humans exists then so will these discussions.
I don’t know how this all ends and I feel the % of the aggrieved may be small, I suppose we find out as we progress. In any case governments are now involved, I feel we let them in and possibly even begged for it with all the class action, I will get a lawyer stuff.
We need to try again I think and somehow either make everyone rich or make money worthless or find that balance that works, who knows?
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This has now become a very interesting thread. Probably a little too much implied hostility while I have a firm sense that no one has bad or greedy intentions, only trying to bring all angles of the discussion on the table. My hope is that everyone could see the same.
I gave my 2sats earlier (after @Seneca suggested a token buyback is an option): IF a token buyback is on the table, I would advice a 100% token buyback, for the current value of the development pool build up (I’m reading a number $20 million). That way no one can ever complain. @Seneca has then the option of doing a new round when Safe Network is going live.
Full disclosure: I am an initial investor in the Decorum ICO, holding a little over 2.5M (converted) PDC tokens. Never sold them, never traded with them, as I was hoping to start using them when business models could be developed on top of the Decorum protocol, and I would like to start contributing to the Safe/Decorum infrastructure in that phase. I’m a very patient guy, and still hopeful this will go somewhere. I’ll completely leave it to the integrity and discretion of @Seneca what he decides is a good and fair path forward for him, and the goals he has with Decorum.
If Senceca does this, he should put together individual contracts, stating that… if the fiat value of the initial donated coin drops - investors must pony up (at any random future point) the difference in fiat value decline or return all PDCs.
It would be very unfair to ask him to run a development team on less fiat and less team members ( as people need fiat to pay rent) and deliver the same project value if the initial donated coins plummet in value.
… and how would people feel about that? Probably feel it’s unfair to be chased at some random point in the future just because their initial donated coin changed in value.
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Sure thing. My friendly advice is based on the presumption that many things have changed (from little to substantially) in 5+ years, from @Seneca his interest in the Safe Network project, his business model with Decorum (is it still 100% valid after 5+ years?) to regulatory environment in which Safe/Decorum operates, or will go operate. This may, or may not, make the need to make investors whole again (as if the ICO never happened, so to say) urgent. Or not, I have no idea. Only @Seneca can answer most of these questions. My strong intention is to comply with whatever he decides, and not be a disruptive force in the process. Still, I can see, based on guts feelings basically, as the most logical outcome of this process & discussion that PDC investors will be made whole from the current value of the remaining funds, and @Seneca does a new round with a new/finetuned business model. A fresh start, from all angles.
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Would this thread have existed if donated crypto where converted to fiat?
As in my previous post, would investors be chasing the lost fiat gains from a pot of just Euros.
Should investors also be chasing the fiat appreciation of left over crypto even if safenetwork was live and PDC was delivered?
If we applied some of the attitudes in this thread to the rest of they cryptosphere suddenly every single crypto project would become a nightmare to manage financially… crypto projects would then be … crypto projects + investment funds + Tax headaches. Why bother starting any project at all?
If I understand the tax situation, seneca could be in a massive Tax hole if he does start to refund people — would people be willing to pay his Tax for him? As after tax issues, I don’t think it is possible for seneca to return all coins to everyone even if he wanted to. He has put himself in great tax risk for the project.
Workers, taxes are all paid in fiat.
When I’ve invested in a crypto project, I immediately write off the fiat value, the initial fiat value and future fiat value of the coin. You put your crypto in, take your PDC, and that’s the transaction.
The testnetwork is coming up, and a more stable environment for Seneca to deliver on.
With a more stable environment to deliver on, and if only the Seneca doesn’t produce anything further - then that’s another discussion.
He’s stuck to his word all the way through.
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This is key and we should not be doing anything here but saying thanks for astute (or lucky) firm hands. Folk are also not recognising @Seneca and @bzee have done work, they have produced code, they act in the interests of supporters and look like they will continue to do so. I say thanks and keep on going, guys. Just as the testnets are happening and Safe is feature complete the timing is terrible.
I say let them do what they set out to do and when that’s done then let’s see how any excess (if there is any) is handled by the team there. Let’s not trip them up 5 yards form the finish line.
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Likely not. I’m mostly replying to what @Seneca put himself on the table: a potential refund to investors, knowing that the funds we all donated are still there. That’s all. 
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How do you know that? Seneca did not confirm it. His money has been moved to another address that may not be his…
Sorry, you are right. I should have said “most of the funds we all donated”. Seneca said he didn’t convert to fiat, and that he has been “conservative” with spending anything of it. It were others who tried to guess what is the current remains, and there I see amounts mentioned around $20 million. But indeed, @Seneca did not confirm, nor deny, this so far.
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Hi Harmen, Bzee,
Three questions please:
- How is the development of the Decorum project using Rust coming along?
- Did you thought of a Plan B for the Decorum project is to explore outside Safe Network (Cosmos, Near, Polkadot, …)?
- Is there a plan for a buy back PDC?
Thanks
Hi Harmen, Bzee,
Any comments regarding
- How is the development of the Decorum project using Rust coming along?
- Did you thought of a Plan B for the Decorum project is to explore outside Safe Network (Cosmos, Near, Polkadot, …)?
- Is there a plan for a buy back PDC?
To be honest, even if they are looking at rust, the network is no where near finalised.
I certainly wouldn’t want to be building till I know the foundations and what you can be done with them.
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As far as I’m willing to guess, I would expect they are working on the client side reputation part of their app that Harnen gave us a nugget on awhile back and maybe UI, which would make a lot of sense to me but I reckon they are far more clever than I so maybe entirely different approach.
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Bones, Nigel, Thanks for your comments.
I’m hopping Harmen/Bzee with answer my questions directly.