Store Of Value

[19eddyjohn75]

In all honesty the store of value idea was just level 1 of the game.
Level 2 is AGI on the Network, level 3 is ASI

Now imagine having a disease and we are @ level 2 of this game of life.
In the AlphaFold DB of about 23 TB is the cure to the disease.

It would take 6 hours with a 10gb internet connection without interruption to upload this
DB to the Network, costs would be 24 nanos.

How much nanos would it cost to perform the above without your store of value? Simple answer,
you can’t tell! Spoiler alert, keep uploading MBs and soon enough adoption will be like ipv6

Gold and everything that somebody has to speculate a price, is fool’s gold. SAFE is more like
Star Trek’s 3d chess, with storage, computation and AI going up.

[19eddyjohn75]

With upload up to 1TB for 1 nano, I was just simply asking, how fast do you want to move?
Is this your speed?

Or maybe this is your speed?

In today’s world time is all that matters, people who think they got time:
Can you talk to 200 million people every week? I doubt that you can do this, but ChatGPT can.

Uploading a floppy disk to the Network will probably take you more time, swapping all your floppy disks etc.

This is time on the Network with the cost of 1 nano for 1TB = 31 nano Nebula upload 5x nodes 155 nano node runner overhead

@19eddyjohn75

Nebula streaming service uploading their entire 30 TB library, with Google fiber’s 10 Gbps within 7 hours for 1 nano.

Let’s look at another from Claude
As of my last update in April 2023, it was estimated that around 500 hours of video were uploaded to YouTube every minute. Using this figure, we can calculate an estimate:

1. In one hour: 500 hours * 60 minutes = 30,000 hours of video
2. In 7 hours: 30,000 hours * 7 = 210,000 hours of video

I think it’s time just receive this message from Claude

1. Now, we need to estimate the average file size per hour of video. This can vary widely depending on resolution, frame rate, and compression. Let’s consider a few common scenarios: a) Standard Definition (480p):

• Approx. 1-2 GB per hourb) High Definition (1080p):
• Approx. 4-8 GB per hourc) 4K Ultra HD:
• Approx. 20-40 GB per hour

2. Let’s use an average estimate assuming a mix of these qualities. We’ll say the average is around 5 GB per hour.
3. Calculation: 210,000 hours * 5 GB/hour = 1,050,000 GB
4. Convert to TB: 1,050,000 GB = 1,050 TB (since 1 TB = 1,000 GB)

So, based on these estimates, the total amount of data uploaded to YouTube in 7 hours could be around 1,050 TB or 1.05 PB (petabytes).

Spoiler alert, this is done for free on Youtube.

Sorry kids, but they didn’t have the caterpillar (it does look like a caterpillar though) pov of node running

Whatever i’m paying to farm, should be balanced with whatever I’m farming, period!

The butterfly only sees the up to 1TB storage upload, things like hardware costs, read and write speed or other things related to other providers, not so important.

When you are born, nothing is balanced in accordance to your costs, the 1 nano represent going from 0 nano to 1 nano.

You can’t crawl, walk, run
You can’t speak, understand, reply
You don’t know nothing

It’s always easy to say that something won’t work, but with all the info the had could it predict this?

@19eddyjohn75

@19eddyjohn75 sold 1 nano for €0.10 is 284771285 nano (second real world tx)

In the real world have you ever tried to sell your 1 nano for €0.01 or $0.01 or are you so deep in the matrix that all you can see is what something is on an exchange, so that’s the only reality. You would give someone 28837225 nano because that is €0.01, with my tip that he can become a node runner, I gave him an opportunity, more important he paid €0.10 for my 1nano so he is giving that as change instead of fiat and this is one micro instance how a economy starts.

For me this sounds more like “In God We Trust”

@DavidMc0

I hope those designing the economics

Economics is something that is best done on an individual level. Leave it up to institutions or algorithms and some people might be loosing their jobs due to a decision, while others get richer. You make the economy, , you hold the SAFE, you hold the software, you hold the hardware…

@DavidMc0

it is always thought provoking and interesting throwing around ideas

I couldn’t agree more, when you have created level 1 of your game of life, mine looks like this:
1 nano for 1 NRS, 1 nano for up to 1TB and 1 nano for 1Tx. Yours probably different

@DavidMc0

it is always thought provoking and interesting throwing around ideas

@DavidMc0

Can you please sell me your house / car / phone for 1 nano?

This is level 2
You sell all three, your house, car and phone to an AGI for 1 nano and you rent all three from the AGI for 1 nano per annum or choose your price that you think is fair.
#youwillowenothing… #yourtheowneroftheagi

But in all honesty you won’t be able to see level 2, if you don’t have a level 1…

[JimCollinson]

@19eddyjohn75

With upload up to 1TB for 1 nano, I was just simply asking, how fast do you want to move?
Is this your speed?

Can I ask where this idea of 1TB for 1 nano comes from? I’m not following

[storage_guy]

Why have you started yet another topic for this 1TB for 1 nano claptrap? There are already 2 on the go to have your breakdown in:-

Hard coded Purchasing Power

Maybe, but I hope those designing the economics of the network see things my way Anyway, it is always thought provoking and interesting throwing around ideas

Store Of Value

In all honesty the store of value idea was just level 1 of the game. Level 2 is AGI on the Network, level 3 is ASI Now imagine having a disease and we are @ level 2 of this game of life. In the AlphaFold DB of about 23 TB is the cure to the disease. It would take 6 hours with a 10gb internet connection without interruption to upload this DB to the Network, costs would be 24 nanos. How much nanos would it cost to perform the above without your store of value? Simple answer, you can’t tell!…

Is it because you keep getting shot down in flames in them?! Can’t hit a moving target!

@maidsafe please recode everything so that 1TB = 1 nano permanently. It’s the only way we’ll get any peace. @19eddyjohn75 has all the details of how it will work economically including how people will be incentivised to run nodes when they can only possibly receive less than 1 nano per TB they provide.

[neo]

Does anyone see any reason I shouldn’t just move this topic to the end of the previous one. As far as i can see its a continuation of the “Store of Value” topic

[19eddyjohn75]

For me it all started with the Storj free tier of 150 GB in 2021.
This was later followed by Terabox 1024GB.

I look at free, because it informs me what I should spend on the Network for starters 1 nano. Some people will follow the Maidsafe algo, but that doesn’t work for me, because this can be influenced by news, exchanges or VPS costs.

Even worse these fluctuations are an absolute distraction from what we should be really doing: Upload as much data onto the Network as possible!

So to cut through the noise I suggest uploading up to 1TB for 1 nano. What this does is open the floodgate to upload 24/7, we are no longer distracted by the above. Please keep in mind you can upload 1MB and pay 1 nano, but it’s also possible to upload up to 1TB.

@JimCollinson I suggested 1 nano for 1 NRS, 1 nano for up to 1TB and 1 nano for 1Tx.
Because this gives a solid foundation to the token, e.g. store of value.
My friend who is a store owner, can now run a node and use his 1 nano as change. Buy a domain on the Network and have a billion tx per MAID.

As far as I can see from the responses nobody really gave me an idea how they look at the world from a node runner perspective, I wonder if I was close with the caterpillar?

Fun fact, Jim I sold 1 nano for €0.10, that probably impossible in some people their mind. Those who say something won’t work without presenting their homework

How many node runners did you talk to?
What are their computer setup?
How much can they contribute to the network?

I don’t know all the answers, when it come to everything my knowledge is 1 nano. If others chip in with what they know, especially show data and feedback from the node runners around the world, I’ll give it a look.

I only have one title “clueless consumer”, yeah sure @neo

[19eddyjohn75]

With everything I do I keep this in mind

The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool. Richard P. Feynman

@Southside

Its been thoroughly debunked by most on here who have a clue

Imagine saying the Earth goes around the Sun, while all the other extremely bright minds around you, know better. Ask anyone what they would rather pay? 1 nano for resources or N? I doubt that they would vote N with their wallet.

I rather have my whole community go against me, because I decided to create the rules of my own game. By creating my own game mechanics, I’m basically saying you to all the storage providers, domainname hosts and payment processors on clearnet. What better way to say, hello world?

But if the higher priority is the noderunners costs that need equilibrium, I’m honestly surprise. I know that the upload costs going up, means more MAID need to be bought, so the price of MAID going up, but in my mind this is nonsensical. The balancing act of time and currency, is at best comedy, because currency loose it’s value every second that past.

Moreover your interrupting the uploading of data that’s forever, costing time which is way more valuable than fiat. Long-term growth over short-term profits is obviously not our objective…

Funny by the way you discovered the first 1 nano txfee

Cannot add another entry since the register entry cap has been reached: 1024

So I was messing with a wee script to stress DBC transactions. Running on a 30 node testnet it puts the genesis DBC into WALLET01 and then reissues 10SNT and deposits that into WALLET02 1000 times. But after 511 loops, this happens Wallet at "safe://hyryynyzj5msffzwgasujkrk6u5ieug7pzdoo867mxzz1pk3cu75ir74mnhb6o" has a total balance of 4525519019.999996430 safecoins Wallet at "safe://hyryynys9hyj86rsps83xeg3fbny6t3gexcrrsasfmcm9yrg8ehdduuq1rab6o" has a total balance of 5100.000000000 safecoin…

@southside I’ve always seen you as the teacher, but even teachers and students should disagree. Science is measuring…

I take nothing personal we’re all here for the better. When I’m wrong, I learn and I’m willing to change my mind, if presented…

@neo

Then no need to comment

[riddim]

@19eddyjohn75

because currency loose it’s value every second that past.

as everything currency value does have cycles to it too

and the currency loosing its value entirely is when its supply side has the upper hand (printed like crazy … everything costs just 1 nano and every user has billions of them)

[TylerAbeoJordan]

Just curious why you picked one nano. The network in the future could subdivide the token further to pico’s or even femto’s … would you then want pico’s or femto’s to be equal to one gigabyte? And why one Gigabyte? Why not a Terabyte or an Exobyte?

If you limited yourself to what the team told you they planned to offer (nano level subdivision), then why don’t you limit yourself to what the market will offer for one nano, instead of seeking a fixed rate of one nano to one gigabyte?

Many want to make markets out to be a bad thing - but markets are just us and prices are the truest form of an honest democracy.

[storage_guy]

@TylerAbeoJordan

And why one Gigabyte? Why not a Terabyte or an Exobyte?

He already wants 1 nano to buy 1TB!

But he’s cheerfully ignoring the fact that if 1 nano buys 1TB of storage no one running nodes is ever going to get paid for running nodes.

Ignoring that issue for a moment he’s not grasped that if something is priced in large units the price is driven by the cost of that. It will not be economic to upload single files of, say, 1MB or even 1GB because the dollar / pound / euro price of a token will be driven by the fact that 1TB can be uploaded for the same price.

[TylerAbeoJordan]

Yep, and the market dynamics aside, I’m just struck by the arbitrariness of it. Fixing a price seems the act of a dictator, not a communitarian.

So curious as to what sort of philosophy he’s following here.

[Southside]

@19eddyjohn75

I’ve always seen you as the teacher,

/me rushes to SpecSavers to make an emergency appointment for @19eddyjohn75
In the meantime, use this white cane…

[tobbetj]

@19eddyjohn75

@southside I’ve always seen you as the teacher,

In what, baking pie holes that can’t be shut?

[19eddyjohn75]

@riddim

everything costs just 1 nano and every user has billions of them

Trillions of red bloodcells are in your body, trillions of neutrinos pass through your body every second. If you don’t worry about these numbers, why worry about those number? Maybe the question should be what is our goal? If I upload the Alphafold database of 24 TB for 24 nano (hihi overhead) with a 10 GB connection in 6 hours and anybody can use it. And for instance David decide to use it, to expose his 1000 TB virtual cells to inform himself of drug discovery and personalized medicine etc, then you got something useful.

With a 1 GB connection it would take 54 hours to upload the Alphafold database of 24 TB. That kids here maybe think there is only a storage market, but if I got a faster connection than you I could charge 1 nano to upload your data. In the erasure protocol we could setup a contract…

Seems like people are loosing sight of how much time it can cost to upload, we don’t got the luxury of time, that’s why it’s better to push for uploads more than anything.

@TylerAbeoJordan

Just curious why you picked one nano.

David and team created a universe, imhco first thing you should do, is give the atom in that universe a function. I use atom or energy regularly for 1 nano, it’s job is to get you network resources.

@TylerAbeoJordan

markets are just us and prices are the truest form of an honest democracy.

I don’t really trust markets, because whoever holds more currency/stocks basically decides what the market should be today.

@storage_guy

But he’s cheerfully ignoring the fact that if 1 nano buys 1TB of storage no one running nodes is ever going to get paid for running nodes.

Hihi I also cheerfully run nodes myself, putting my is.
To all these kids crying for noderunners, dude you are not the market, your 1000 TB that you contribute is not the global storage market. And you know damn well that if you make 1 nano for 1 TB, that you can still buy MAID! Most people providing storage won’t even have access to exchanges (China & India) or won’t bother with a Uniswap’s high fees. An approximate collective population of 723 million people are living in countries with high inflation rates. For them a 1 nano = 1TB = 1NRS = 1TX is stablemoney, at least way more stable than their currency.

@TylerAbeoJordan

I’m just struck by the arbitrariness of it.

Yeah #metoo, but this is nothing new, politicians change things by the stroke of a pen.

Verbod op contante betalingen boven 3000 euro aangenomen door de Tweede Kamer

So maybe it’s fun for the hoi polloi to also exercise this right, simply by the stroke of a code.

@TylerAbeoJordan

Fixing a price seems the act of a dictator, not a communitarian.

If the atoms in our bodies were not stable, human life and existence as we know it would not be possible.

@TylerAbeoJordan

So curious as to what sort of philosophy he’s following here.

Biomimicry

[TylerAbeoJordan]

@19eddyjohn75

I don’t really trust markets, because whoever holds more currency/stocks basically decides what the market should be today.

So you worry about a small group or an individual working to set the price? That seems strange to me, because this appears to be what you yourself are doing by promoting your fixed rate. Am I missing something?

Also consider that any individual or group that tries to manipulate the price in a market economy creates arbitrage opportunities for others to step in and profit on their manipulation - causing the the manipulator to lose money - all while correcting the price back toward the collectively decided market rate.

Setting prices is the inverse example of setting supply quota’s – both have been tried in many economies and both end in economic collapse. This was demonstrated best by Ludwig Von Mises’ with his ‘economic calculation problem’ theory.

Here’s an example courtesy of Venice AI:

In a market economy, the price of data storage network services is determined by supply and demand, allowing providers to cover their costs and incentivize production. This dynamic pricing system ensures that providers can allocate resources efficiently and meet the needs of consumers.

If a socialist economy decides to implement fixed prices for data storage network services, it would disrupt the market price signal and lead to inefficiencies in production. Providers may be unable to cover their costs of production with the fixed price, causing them to reduce their services or cut back on investment in the sector.

In this scenario, the socialist economy would face challenges similar to those faced by socialist economies in allocating resources. Ludwig von Mises would argue that this inefficiency, coupled with the lack of price signals to guide decision-making, would lead to the collapse of a socialist economy. The dynamic pricing system in a market economy ensures that resources are allocated efficiently and that producers have an incentive to meet the needs of consumers.

[DavidMc0]

@19eddyjohn75

If you don’t worry about these numbers, why worry about those number?

At this point I’m not sure if you’re trolling, or just have a big blind spot.

Can you concisely answer this question:

• what happens in your conceptual network if demand for network resources is significantly greater than supply of network resources? (e.g. David wants to store 1000tb, but the network only has space for 500tb, and many other users also want space on the network)

[19eddyjohn75]

Take what I say with a grain of salt, I’m just a clueless consumer and I absolutely don’t have all the answers, if any at all…

There was a poll: How much will you spend?
Majority group voted to pay 1-10 nanosafe for 1 GB, not a stretch of the imagination that they would pay the same if asked 1TB.
I said: I don’t really trust markets, didn’t say I worry, I don’t.
A tweet or flashcrash should give you an idea of the market.

I read the Wikipedia article about ECP, thanks btw, never heard of it before, the idea yes, the term no.
I can’t really say that what I’m doing is central economic planning, if people that voted in the poll were added, it would be decentralized economic planning. Sorry that I say this, but applying decades old ideas to an novel economy, hardly makes sense. It’s true that you look at the past to get an idea of the present and future.

I can’t really judge what other people think, what should be considered as relevant in our new economy. What I don’t deem necessary is exorbitant transaction costs, expensive NRS or high-priced storage. Taking the fiat and cryptocurrencies economic ideas into this new economy seems unwise. I would rather focus on my family, health, good food and drink, having fun than these time wasting nonsensical ant bites.

As an simple example your post and that of knosis in “Ethereum L2 trading fees”. Sorry that I say this bro’s, but no merchant will take you serious or even take the time to read your new crypto buzzwords. Just in case you don’t think 1 nano = 1TB = 1NRS = 1TX is a clear economic proposition. For just 1 nano a merchant can have a website on the Network. Another 1 nano and they have enough storage to leave AWS or other storage providers. Receiving SAFE would be free, but if they want to send altSAFE they would pay 1 nano. Merchants don’t like fluctuating prices when it comes to their business, now they pay a fixed fee in the fiat economy to receive a payment. With 1 MAID they got 1 billion transactions if they send altSAFE. The 1 nano cost for everything is not an socialist act, it’s an economic move to draw as many people as quick as possible into our economy.

I got to hand it to you @DavidMc0 this is a perfect way to try to get someone to answer that the storage fees should go up to attract more noderunners. But honestly I think it’s out of context…

I think you are confusing noderunning with bitcoin or cryptomining. When I pay you that 1 nano for 1 TB uploading, I’m doing two things. One: I make the Network grow by 1TB (hihi overhead). Two : I give you a value that is close to what you had before running a node, and I make sure that you and other noderunners don’t even come close to crash the fiat price, not that I care (Even if you collectively get 1 MAID for 1 day, the Network has grown as it should).

Here are a few snippets from Perplexity:
Global HDD shipments:
In 2023, approximately 127 million hard drives (HDDs) were sold globally .
In 2022, shipments were estimated at 172 million units .
The peak year for HDD shipments was 2010, with approximately 651 million devices shipped .
Market size:
As of 2022, the global hard disk drive market was valued at around US$ 36,500 million .
The market is expected to grow at a CAGR of 12% to reach US$ 126,967 million by 2033 .
Total storage capacity:
In 2023, the total capacity of all implemented HDDs was a little less than 900 Ebytes (Exabytes) .
In 2020, the total capacity of sold drives exceeded 1 ZB (Zettabyte) for the first time

Facts and fiction…

I run a node, get a few nano and honestly I like it like that, because the Network’s growth is the most important thing imhco. What is your storage worth when there is new storage solution? I hardly use my floppydisks… On the other side there are people in the world who have no stable money, just for them I would like to see a stablemoney…

[DavidMc0]

@19eddyjohn75

I think you are confusing noderunning with bitcoin or cryptomining

I’m not. I’m assuming people respond to incentives. You are assuming something else.

@19eddyjohn75

this is a perfect way to try to get someone to answer that the storage fees should go up to attract more noderunners. But honestly I think it’s out of context…

I don’t see it as being out of context. You’re making a proposal about the economics of the network, and I’m asking what would happen if demand outstrips supply under your proposal.

The answer to get this to work in reality is, as you suggest, to allow fees to go up to attract more node runners.

My question is in context if the context is real-world economics, rather than imaginary magical economics.

[19eddyjohn75]

@19eddyjohn75

Here are a few snippets from Perplexity

We won’t run out of storage very soon…

1 nano = 1TB = 1NRS = 1TX = COMPUTE, is just the first level and could have been figured out by a 5 year old child. It makes economic sense, because you want to bring everything on clearnet related to storage, domain, transaction and computation asap to the Network. But this is not, I repeat not the SAFE economy, it’s just a wink to the old clearnet economy. The second level, we get agi on the Network, here is where the SAFE economy starts. The third level, we get asi on the Network…

With imagination you can sometimes achieve more than without it in the “real-world”…

[riddim]

I know nobody who will be willing to provide storage space at a loss

This does not make sense - no matter how much you want this to work