Net Neutrality: How will the new policies against net neutrality work for the Safe Network?

I’m having a hard time wrapping my head around this whole net neutrality thing and whether it is good or bad. In cases like this one looks for relevant analogies to try and illuminate the key points and, hopefully, shed some light on the best path forward.

From the ISP’s point of view:

Point 1 - Some applications and/or companies use an extraordinarily large portion of the available bandwidth.
Point 2 - Bandwidth is limited. Because of technological improvements, tomorrow more bandwidth will be available and a few years from now even more will be available, but it will always be limited.
Point 3 - When companies/applications hog the available bandwidth it can deprive other, more moderate users of a reasonably good Internet experience.
Point 4 - If ISP’s are not allowed to charge the “going price” like other businesses such as apartment rentals, ski lodges, movie theaters, car rentals, manufacturers of electronic devices and the like, it reduces the motivation for innovation and makes it hard to justify large expenditures for research and development to shareholders.

From the users’ point of view:

Point 1 - Giving ISP’s too much power over how and how much they charge for their service opens the door too wide for possible abuse in the form of high prices, unreasonable bundling requirements and onerous contracts.
Point 2 - Local Internet service is usually provided by a monopoly. Sufficient local competition does not exist to rein in the unbridled ambitions of the provider if net neutrality were to be abolished.
Point 3 - Internet access has become a necessity in life, it should not be treated like movie tickets or ski rentals and, such, should be available to all at constant pricing.
Point 4 - ISP’s have a “stewardship” responsibility to the population much like the operators and managers of public parks, construction companies, beach authorities and transportation departments. They should be held more accountable to the public than a regular retail business.

I am sure some salient points have been left out of this argument but, as I see it, these are the important points of contention. So what comparable subject areas do we look at for guidance in reconciling these interests? When the situation is looked at objectively it appears to me that we always come back to public entities and how they are regulated. This, naturally, engenders disdain from those who want no government interference in their day-to-day activities. Most people think the government already has too much control over our lives. But how else are we to marry the interests of the public and the providers?

An analysis of highway use and who pays for it might be a good place to start. Semi trucks are some of the heaviest users of highways and they pay more road-use taxes than a regular person commuting to work in their personal autos. Toll booths are set up on some highways and road construction costs and some maintenance are paid in that manner. License fees, gasoline taxes and, most importantly, general taxes are used for the upkeep of the highways. How might we translate these solutions to the Internet equation?

A comprehensive plan for Internet use and payment is needed with a multi-faceted approach. It is not an easy question and the answer will not be easy. The institution or abolition of net neutrality is too simple an answer. We need relevant parties to form a “Constitutional Convention” of Internet use and come up with a just approach to its economics and provision.

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It doesn’t stop taxation at all. It just shifts it to tangibles. And no as far as the interest the coin is the less important thing, and the result is a commons with the network, which if Libertarians were coherant in their thinking and desires would support but are against because it means the wealthy and the powerful can’t tax people with commons covered resources.

In the US there is no ISP market to set prices there are just local monopolies. As for bandwidth always being limited that won’t be true and should not be true but allowing premium games and monopoly means we will continue to pay for what was long ago paid off. There is still an ocean of un lit or dark fiber in the US. Where is the bandwidth constraint there? These are private entities that are taxing people. Think about the history of the US internet with highest rates for lowest bandwidths and quality of service, that improved under neutrality rules even as they claim investment went down by 5%. And investment is such utter nonsense under monopoly these should entities run at cost beyond programmed imprivements because beyond the rate payer the ‘investor’ contributes nothing under monopoly.

Take the incredibly foolish and dishonest comment by Mark Cuban: neutrality means the government runs the net. Government of we the people is running the net as opposed to we the wealthy we the corporations through consolidated sponsored employer driven media corporations?

In the US we already have the electoral college, gerrymandering a disfuctional party system, ALEC, untennable sponsored bribe based media and bribe based government where it takes sponsor class money to run as non puppets aren’t allowed as sponsors deny them media access through their consolidated captured media and now we will have per new employer sponsor rules a toll road sponsor/employer based internet where our money is used against us to support paid discrimination censorship against us like when Comcast and crew used our money at the behest of their sponsor masters to abrige our actual speech rights (fine print says local sponsor ISP monopoly can censor anyone they want for any reason for any duration as long as they announce ahead of time they are execising their new captured state power) and to charge us more to accelerate such actions.

In the US sponsored government wanted to hide its spying on its own people behind sponsored consolidated for profit media companies (ISPs) like Comcast so it stripped away privacy protections but hid behind Comcast saying greedy Comcast which used our money against us to censor our speech rights with anti neutrality actually wanted it. For context in the very beginning neutrality was anti monopoly as gov didn’t want hardware vendor lock in through intentionally incompatible hardware in the network buildout. It was/is an anti enclosure principal. If a government of the people didn’t want lock in why would the actual people.

So hiding behind their sponsor platforms sponsors pushed for more censorship and now in an election the captured Trump admin will issue national security gag letters to Comcast and crew to throttle opponent information and it will be able to hide behind the claim that sponsored media comcast entity wanted this for profit purposes- money first…
people last.

In sponsored consolidated media the customers are are products or property- they pay a subscription but are force fed propanda and sponsor ads- same thing right down to the programming/content all biased to reinforce sponsor power. The real customer is the sponsor ad pusher owner. The point of sponsorship is not selling products but censorship, spin and the monied class’s drowning out of speech. The point of sponsorship is capture of government by wealth and money it means corporate wage slaver employer capture of speech. In a election money spent to preselect sponsor puppet candidates goes right back to the sponsors to reinforce their censorship filter.

Think about the employer class in the country, they want people to work more and more for lower and lower wages while charging more and more for the products while shifting the tax burden on to people who work. And where automation threatens work they want to reward the people who put the automation in place and ultimately paid for every thing reward them with starving in the street or
being locked up in for profit work camp prisons under formal resurgent slavery.

If you don’t want to be property we cannot have the conflict of interest of sponsored media or sponsored speech platforms. Think co-opted speech lie based misrepresentation speech- right down to certain kinds of puffing. This stuff goes way beyond notions like treason. To me the penalty for sponsorship especially sponsored politicians should be the death penalty coupled with total asset forefeiture. Accepting money to F the public over especially under disgusting self righteous sponsorship should have the stiffest type of disuasive consequence- even as I hate the idea of state having such power.

Note the contemp of that f-er Ajit Pai, this defacto abridgement of 330 million people’s speech rights upon which their very lives literally and truely depend is pitched as helping the poor just like they claimed the 07 collapse under Bush was the poor’s fault because they weren’t working hard enough… to pay home loans and not yet another useless on schedual petrol collapse to aid the hollowing out. A genuine Robespierre and we know what happens with these types of people. But also apparently a true idiot that thinks he’s being a clever Machiavellian when he’s just transparent.

The only analysis that really counts is the censorship analysis because in losing your voice you lose your rights and become peoperty, death is a better plight.

You wanted an analogy. All roads are toll roads that allow a few corporate welfare barons to tax you and hand your money and fruits of your toil over to a few useless entitled non contributing silver spooners. On the way home from a wage slave job, stuck on roads that will never be fixed because not fixing it enables them to charge some people more for paid proritization fast tracks such that you are suffering in traffic so they can gouge other people better able to pay and so those people can have the privilge of making you wait to help reinforce inequity- you have to wait so your betters, more important more valuable people can have luxury. Part of that scheme of addressing the hallucinatory tragedy of the commons is having red lights in the middle of the freeway to further slow your commute to help further drive up rates and push private propaganda. Think unblockable modal ads on your cell interrupting calls at start middle and end- sponsored data nonsense, and useless lying caps ( they can price at based on what things actually cost vice you always paying more that you use with caps- your actual rate is bandwith times rate period seconds- they manage the load and are never to hold custimer blocks ransom- they shouldn’t even have that data as its not their business- public wants dumb pipes not snoopers, spies and discriminating censoring, gouging throttlers rights undermining public enemies. And block an ad or be suspected of it and you get locked out permanently. You get banned from the roads. These firms will start to try to charge premiums for breaking the net.

Don’t think this can happen (?)- Sony was trying to make it a felony to bypass the ads at the front of a bluray disk. And doing this at a time when Tivo was prevalent. And thinking its blue ray boxes would phone home over attempts to do this or bypass its resolution toll road and it thought it could degrade resolution to punish people with flags etc. Even as part if RIAA was pushing the preemptive destruction of people’s equipment and data. Remember the root kit episodes(?) and the bouts of impersonating authorities. MS hired some of the same people that drove this at Sony thinking they could sneak a camera console into the living room to spy on people and that it couldn’t be blocked from phoning home, wanted to track eyes to elements of ads and report on people in their living rooms.

If you want the counter point, yes private firms built out the net but they also thougth during the dot com bubble that it would be cable part two with consolidated top down one way modal ad drive media. They fully expected to hugely profit from first scaming with zero rate sponsored data plan bs. Thought they would then introduce subscriptions on top of the ads just like the cable scam prior did with broadcast TV formerly which was formerly a fairness doctrine (anti sponsor conflict of interest rules) platform. Thet thought it would be full speech enclosure and censorship as in AOL attempting to charge people an hourly rate to access public content on their own hard drives. Version today is we see all these cookie pop ups now indicating cloud firms want to reverse the SAFE approach on us and use our storage free of charge as another squeeze, and note that space will be needed for systems like SAFE.

So what will all of this be used for? Well, petrol in particular hasn’t been economcally viable for 70 years and its just been a means of trying to take us in a post capital age of automation back to the plantation and feudal servitude to preserve the power and prestiege of former capitalists so when they commit their next slew of terror acts to shore up the scam of petrol they will use this censorship to cover it.

The world has one public enemy industry right now and that is the petrol fuel/energy industry. The US has two public enemy industries petrol and telecom-cable-sponsored media.

They will also censor the three things the world really needs:

  1. End of petrarchy petrol scam- can’t go back to Monarchy reinforced by data base- human extinction would be preferable.

  2. End of conflation of speech with censorship (money.) Money is not speech, in the context of speech and political speech which is the core of speech it is a conflict of interest. So the end if sponsored lie based media, end of the censorship industry.

  3. Need a high indexed guaranteed unconditional annual income for everyone cradle to grave. This is part of stripping away the useless coercive residual power of long dead but straddled with retributive debt capital and the long defunct employeer class.

Should have said bandwidth is finite. You can only cram so much information into a tube or an airwave. Technology will find ways to cram more into the same pipes, for sure, but we will always find more ways to use it all up. A real cat and mouse game.

Then, build more tubes, you might say. Sounds easy, but is expensive. You can build 5, 10 or 20 more transatlantic tubes and bandwidth will still be finite. You cannot exceed the speed of light nor can you create more spectrum. You can allocate more, to some degree, but you will always run up against saturation eventually. It will always be a vicious cycle of bandwidth surplus-bandwidth saturation-technology improvements-bandwidth surplus.

In the meantime, we need to find a way to appease users and providers during periods of saturation.

Given the safe network architecture, is it possible to launch a monetized mesh network based on cjdns? I thought most of the pieces are already in place for this?

As I was responding in the prior post I kept thinking of the quantum communication stuff. That doesn’t seem very limited. Think it might even make storage seem unlimited and quantum communication is an outgrowth of better quantum computer tech- what ever the q analog of a bus is in that system if it can be spread across greater space amounts to a com channel. I haven’t been following it much but the press had chatter about so called quantum teleportation be revolutionary for quantum communication.

Not sure how related it is but remember some researcher at UCLA talking about gravity wave phones or something like that- this was 10 years ago and I know it sounds preposterous but what has stuck in my mind unlike the quantum stuff which always orbits superluminal backwards in time, blah blah blah, was how it was just so obvious to the people discussing this mechanism that in theory it could pass a signal straight through the Earth in a straight line with no interferance or degradation and very little power. The Earth was transparent more so that to neutrinos. I just have sense that there is tech that will enable us to bypass these toll road players that must be reduced to proper dumb pipes. Their money arguments are intollerable.

And what of compression. Can Q computers give us tech that compresses a signal a lot more? And there are the interference base noise as signal approaches which seem to bypass ISPs licensed spectrum.

Even if we have to brute force it with LiFi and line of sight optical and running fiber between houses ourselves and pcell like interference based mesh net end user owned nodes I think we end up creating it. A better IOT could be a step in this direction. SAFE is like the software inspiration for this kind of stuff or tapped into it.

Is putting SAFEnet on a mesh net even a good idea? In SAFE nodes needs to reach other nodes on the other side of the earth, that’s a worst case scenario for mesh nets.

Definitely a good idea… where it works. The network will decide this because nodes that aren’t reliable enough because they are in a poorly connected mesh will be rejected, and if they are reliable, they’ll be accepted.

So as soon as the network is up and running is of the first things I’d like to see is farming extended to incentivise those providing connectivity infrastructure (if that’s needed - it may not, but I certainly want to see that happening). It might have to wait for smart contracts/IoT support features though.

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Anyone know what this creepy eye symbol is on my screen? :eyes:

probably this

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