Native currency

[Toivo]

@DavidMc0

Keep it community only for now and it hopefully won’t have annoying David Irvine issues

Kind of agree, but I would try to focus on the positive side:

Without expecting anything from Autonomi, we can focus on creating a track that really feels common to all the participants. People can feel heard and we can exchange ideas and be responsive to each other.

(I’m talking like I would be someone to make something, when in reality the maximum I can do is run some nodes and do a little idiot proofing. But it’s just that I want to say “us”, and mean that in a way that should be possible with this community.)

[neo]

@DavidMc0

That would make on boarding very easy, and if it is literally an upload credit for network resources

Well gift cards exist and can be bought and sold purely because in most places the dollar value falls below the financial threashold. I believe it is 1000 euro in Europe and is like 1000 or 2000 dollars in AU and I would think similar in most western places.

So not only will it be safer because it is for in-network (similar to in-game gift carding) as you mentioned but also because the value is too small to be any issue with regulators and money laundering limits.

[DavidMc0]

@Toivo

Kind of agree, but I would try to focus on the positive side:

Definitely, though, not annoying David / distracting the team does seem like a positive to me too.

@Toivo

the maximum I can do is run some nodes and do a little idiot proofing

Well, you also suggested the idea. Pretty significant if it happens.

I also can’t code, but will be supportive of the effort if any devs want to get involved.

I expect @Traktion may be interested, possibly using his work on tweaking data types as a basis for this?

Then hopefully @loziniak may be interested in relation to his native token work.

Maybe other devs would be interested to get involved too?

Do you guys think it might be a good idea to work toward a native token test network to move things forward on this front without distracting the team?

[digipl]

@DavidMc0

If eventually it can be minted by locking ANT in a smart contract & burned to unlock that ANT, then it never needs to have any regulatory challenges in most places.

In my dreams, this is the possible solution that would enable the survival of this network. An external token linked to a blockchain and a secondary internal token within the network with very low cost. The existence of the first could also help secure the second, as there could be a verification of all created genesis.

This would likely require nodes to accept both tokens, which complicates the software, and the existence of a fully decentralized conversion method ANT<->Native.
Perhaps a fork could come into play here. While the official node software only accepts ANT, the secondary one would accept both tokens. This way, the foundation would be somewhat more protected.

Obviously, there are numerous problems to solve, and it continues to generate significant doubts, but, without this, I highly doubt the current network will survive. as indicated by the sharp decline in its valuation and its lack of use.

[DavidMc0]

@digipl

This would likely require nodes to accept both tokens, which complicates the software

From previous chats with Neo and others, it seems the approach for nodes to only accept the native token may be preferable, with the ERC20 only used for smart-contract distributions and on/off boarding.

That way paying for data can be streamlined without the ERC20 concerns.

But, there’s likely various ways to do it, and I hope the community is up to the challenge.

[digipl]

@DavidMc0

From previous chats with Neo and others, it seems the approach for nodes to only accept the native token may be preferable, with the ERC20 only used for smart-contract distributions and on/off boarding.

Ideal, yes. But that would require the full support of the foundation for the internal token, which I see as very unlikely.
It’s clear that legal aspects are becoming increasingly significant and are perversely conditioning this development, moving it away from its basic premises while also hindering its progress.
I’m very much afraid that if we truly want to break the chains of the blockchain, it will have to be outside the foundation.

[gmax92]

If you decide to fork the network, make sure to not make it any of this pre-mine crap but distribution similar to bitcoin with network building up value from running nodes

[John]

@neo

make an APP that allows the printing of gift certificate bar

This can open the door to creating an offline>online physical product in the form of Offline Paper Alius Books (XOR Books) and educational /training books (of all types) which could if really done well (LEGO approah) could become a type of “funded proposal” (as in a sales funnel) where the profits from sales and distribution (open source direct sales model) could fund MVP ideas.?

[Traktion]

@DavidMc0

I expect @Traktion may be interested, possibly using his work on tweaking data types as a basis for this?

If we did go down the forking route, this is definitely an option. Creating custom types with ownership isn’t that hard, no that I’ve understood how its done.

What isn’t clear to me is how creating tokens could be done.

Once idea was to have a smart contract thar burned ANT (or eMAID, tbh) and created a one way exchange for native. This could then dictate the supply without any further action. What was burned becomes what circulates.

However, that links the fork to MAID, which may be undesirable on a fork. May be best for all involved to keep them separate.

Maybe it makes a certain amount of sense to create the external token on a blockchain, then burn it for native though. That could help to control the unburned suppy, without having to invent something novel to do it natively. A one way burn into a storage token would be like buying a gift card, which feels reasonable from a legal standpoint, but maybe maidsafe were advised otherwise? Clarity would be nice.

Then you have the problem of how to pay node runners. I haven’t inspected the code around that, but it may be possible to transfer a native token directly to a node runner. I’m guessing the mainnet does something similar to that now already, but via a blockchain.

So, having data types that can have ownership changed, without a long history, is semi-proven as possible (i.e. not battle tested, but POC works). That is useful for all sorts of data permission reasons. Using such a type for tokens seems possible too, but managing supply and node payments isn’t clear to me.

Whatever does happen, backwards compatibility with mainnet would be hugely beneficial, as would remaining friendly with the maidsafe team. Tbh, if they weren’t happy with the fork, I’m not sure I’d want to be involved with it either.

[DavidMc0]

@Traktion

if they weren’t happy with the fork, I’m not sure I’d want to be involved with it either.

Absolutely.

I’m only interested in a community native token test network with the hope it’ll help speed up eventual native token for the main Autonomi Network.

I would certainly not want to support anything that undermined the team or token holders.

For a test network, a 1 way bridge from a valueless test Arbitrum based token would do the job, but for using real ANT I expect a 2 way bridge would be very much preferable if it’s possible to achieve.

[Traktion]

@DavidMc0

For a test network, a 1 way bridge from a valueless test Arbitrum based token would do the job, but for using real ANT I expect a 2 way bridge would be very much preferable if it’s possible to achieve.

If that sort of think could be mined at a defined rate, it would be a great way to feed the network too.

I don’t have any smart contract experience though, so we would need someone to look at the 1 way conversion side.

[TylerAbeoJordan]

I think our thoughts are converging here. Join my DM convo next week and let’s discuss. I have a plan.

[happybeing]

@Traktion

What isn’t clear to me is how creating tokens could be done.

According to Autonomi recently (I think in last week’s Dev update) DBCs were working and only abandoned for reasons of regulatory risk. So no technical barriers left to overcome.

I’ve been away and not seen if there was an answer to my follow up questions, including about whether that barrier will change going forward.

I don’t claim to understand the risks here, but they may be different for individuals and also in different jurisdictions, so may be worth investigating.

[19eddyjohn75]

@happybeing

DBCs were working and only abandoned for reasons of regulatory risk.

Meanwhile

Automating Escrow with USDC and AI - Corey Cooper, Circle

DBCs…

[feinberg]

I’m having a hard time figuring out why any sane person would interact with USDC, USDT or any other stablecoin if not coerced to do so for any other reason than minimizing risk when trading. BDBCs are obviously superior in every way. I’ll revisit later, but the first 12 minutes or so are just absolutely insulting. Regulation is not innovation and that is all these so-called products seem to offer. USG has absolutely zero control over spending and is now trying to pitch stablecoins as a way to maintain global reserve status via bond purchases which is just beyond insane.

[19eddyjohn75]

@feinberg

DBCs are obviously superior in every way

I would agree if we had DBC on the Network

Politicians and regulators can talk to our AI’s on the Network, and pay our AI’s for the talk

Btw no need to watch stablecoin this that with AI, AI will figure out sooner than humans what currency is and what money truly is and boy it’s computational resources…

[feinberg]

@19eddyjohn75

it’s computational resources…

Somehow I think most people here managed to see that. How would you like to see the project move forward?

[19eddyjohn75]

@feinberg

How would you like to see the project move forward?

I think about it like this, if I don’t code or do pull requests to bring the project forward my opinion doesn’t matter. That’s why I dislike talking to the Maidsafe devs, it’s almost like wasting everybody else in the community their time.

I hope we get dns that’s even usable for the brands on clearnet, that we get dbc and ai. If not a fork will appear and everything that was not possible will be possible and much more.

[feinberg]

@19eddyjohn75

I dislike talking to the Maidsafe devs, it’s almost like wasting everybody else in the community their time

Why? They pay good money via their time to get feedback from people like you.

@19eddyjohn75

I hope we get dns that’s even usable for the brands on clearnet, that we get dbc and ai.

Pretty sure a sizable portion of this community is all the way on board with you.

[safemedia]

Should we be focusing on reaching out to big data players right now? Because by doing so isn’t it only getting them to fund another network? (arb). When that data could be used to support our network instead?

I do feel this will turn into a lot of FUD eventually where someone will be calculating all the lost revenue over time.

Then the community will delve into ‘wen native’ token until that issue is fixed.

If native is >6 months away, perhaps it would make sense to move to a network with tiny fees now before the software becomes too dependent when big players start using Autonomi.

As mentioned before, at least with something like Solana we could have lower fees with the potential of marketing to a large community with lots of liquidity. That could potentially tide us over until native.