MaidSafeCoin (MAID) - Price & Trading topic (Part 1)

I have the same background as yours, but I reached the opposite conclusion about MaidSafe.
The Safecoin is what Satoshi’s promised to be and never realized. The point of the whitepaper’s vision was to achieve complete distributed mining by the users themselves, so it would be safe from both technical and political manipulation. But clearly he didn’t foresee the consequences of optimization in mining by specialized hardware, pooling and finally the centralization in a few dozen companies in the world, from which more than 50% of mining power is now coming from a totalitarian regime.
I still remember that the early versions of the Bitcoin wallet came with a pickaxe option to mine with your cpu, now that fundamental fact is looked back as a curious historic trivia.

With the SafeNetwork such centralization is impossible, while you might be able to farm wholesale in datacenters, that wouldn’t affect the possibility of single individuals to get a reward as well by sharing their humble single hard drive. The concept of distorting the difficulty increasing by large players doesn’t exist here.

The point of absolute democratization of the issuance of the cryptocurrency is unparalleled, literally every single human can participate in farming, and the chances are exactly the same for everyone.
There isn’t any trick that deep pockets can do to game the system for their own profit in detriment of the weaker.

Besides the technical details, you seem to scorn about the Safecoin being an utility token. I would agree with you if you were talking about Storj, Sia or Filecoin.
But the SafeNetwork allows you way more than what those little projects can ever offer. It is not a token for a single use, it is a token to enter a new internet that could potentially replace every single service on the normal web.

What’s the price to replace reverse proxies, backups, datacenters fees, DDoS protection services, hosting fees, CDNs, security audits, pentesting fees, insurance policies and legal fees against data breach?
If everything goes as planned, you can replace everything with a single network. This is a hell of an utility, we are talking at the potential of leaving at least 9 industries obsolete. Industries, not companies, industries. Poof, irrelevant.
Any junior developer will be able to create a secure app without the expertise in network security, without worrying about scalability, and without the worry about being hacked or taken over. It will be 100% focused in productivity. Do you see how it would dramatically impact the bottom line of every company out there?

Besides that, there is the near instantaneous transfer of coins, with the impossibility of getting any kind of bottleneck by transaction volume in the network. Every transaction would run parallel independently from each other within their own group consensus, the maximum throughput would be infinitely higher than any other crypto project out there, every user in the world could do a simultaneous transaction at the same time and it shouldn’t even flicker a second in its performance. And for free! Zip, nada.
It has all the properties for a global digital cash ever created.

I agree with you that it must be battle tested to see if it delivers on the promise, but that is just obvious and applicable to any project. The point here is that the scope of this project and the ultimate consequences in our society are way beyond of any other project out there.

The rest is attempting to recreate a startup unicorn, MaidSafe has the crazy ambition of delivering an actual paradigm shift.

I keep maintaining my very early assessment that a fair price per Safecoin should be around 20.5 dollars, that is without considering the demand that may exist as cash replacement.

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I agree, $20/coin is a very defensible estimate if things take off. I’ve run some numbers a few different ways and I think $100 is quite possible long-term as a floor if the network achieves widespread use. This is about a $200B market cap (assuming ~half of SAFE are in circulation). With speculation, the price could maybe be several if not possibly many times that at some point.

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I thought BTC’s security is economic and not cryptographic. With that in mind it makes total sense why you can’t mine btc with a cpu as back in the days. The competition between the miners and the reinvesting of their profits back into hardware pushes the technology forward making it less and less profitable to cheat the protocol. BTC mining expenses is what secures the netwrok. I don’t know why you say Satoshi didn’t see this. I think it was very clear to him from the very beginning that it is going in that direction side by side with the maturity of the network. It is “Capitalism” in it’s best without any government/political interference. That’s why it will always be because it acknowledges human nature as “is” (realistic) and not as it “should be” (utopian). humans/Miners are greedy.

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That sentence by itself doesn’t make any sense.
You are just spewing the rationalization of the centralization of the Bitcoin network.
The same economics works in the same exact way if every single user were participating in the mining (if we assume for a moment that there were no optimization tricks for faster hashing).
A single adversary wouldn’t be able to attack the network because to do so that adversary would need to have as much CPUs running as half of the entire network.

Right now, instead of having such hashrate distributed between the millions of Bitcoin wallets around the world, it is in the hands of about a dozen companies, a single expropriation order from the Chinese government would instantly kill the network.

That is the very thing that was designed to avoid, and under that metric the network has failed its purpose.

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Satoshi clearly talked about server farms.

You can find it here Scalability

The more difficult it is to run a node, the fewer nodes there will be it is as simple as that. No rocket science.

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More “The current system where every user is a network node is not the intended configuration for large scale. That would be like every Usenet user runs their own NNTP server. The design supports letting users just be users. The more burden it is to run a node, the fewer nodes there will be.”

First of all, I wonder if you know the difference between a miner and a full node.

Anyway, I don’t see how that is helping your argument in either case, this is yet another problem that shows how little thought they gave to the incentives of full nodes. Without full nodes the network dies, and they are forcing people to be allocating resources altruistically for the health of the network. In the last 2 years the total number of full nodes decreased 12%, and the trend is still falling…
And as the blockchain grows, only those few hardcore idealists will be burning resources to host a ginormous full blockchain without any kind of compensation (such as the miner), this will inevitably lead to fewer and fewer full nodes.

In the SafeNetwork every single user is a node that does an useful task of verifying, every single user has a role in securing the network.
While the Bitcoin network doesn’t grow as adoption grows, in the SafeNetwork the network actually becomes stronger when the adoption grows, as it should be.

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Agree 100% with u @piluso

Do you know any utility token who came to be valuable ?

That’s what scares me the most.
If token is used token is spent. Price is capped.
If coin is hodled scarcity takes price to the roof.
That’s the reason why BTC has unique value and could capitalize on being first til today.

20$ I am telling you is not a lot.

Mass Adoption of the network will create speculation that should initially push the price completely off the chart, way above its real utility value. Let’s say 100$- 1000$

A long slump will follow when safecoin price eventually aligns with its real utility value ( even after cannabalizing 7 industries) 20$

What is useful and common always sells cheap

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How do you see the utility value? It sounds like you think there’s some absolute or natural level of value based on utility, but I don’t see it like that, so I’m curious.

I think the value will be unpredictable, like bitcoin it can and will move depending on supply and demand (from all sources).

I think that its utility determines value in that it will be a factor in the overall supply and demand along with all other sources of supply and demand.

The big difference I see is in damping volatility. By having utility - a sizable portion of its buyers and sellers will see its value primarily in relation to the goods (eg storage) it is exchanged for - and provide a buffer against price movements from other sources such as speculation and manipulation. The influence of this damping will depend on the relative volume of this activity in the Safecoin economy, but I don’t see how this gives rise to a particular price level at which to settle.

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$20 with everything running like a well oiled machine puts it at a ~84 billion market cap with no float remaining. That obviously doesn’t make any sense. It can be agreeable that what is useful and common sells cheap, it will just mean that a fraction of a coin will be needed to do X. Pretend it disrupts suggested industries and truly takes over all or most of the above mentioned things. It is best to work off of total possible coins (even while extremely unlikely we ever see that or don’t see it for decades down the road), and then work backwards with lesser supply. Stabilization should be considered at a 1 trillion cap @ full supply which is roughly $250/coin. Could take a very long time to get there (not on speculation but as a stabilized price), but we also have the benefit of watching how bitcoin has reacted for 10-15 years before this project was even ready, which I would suggest is a god thing. So, speculation could go anywhere but a “stabilized” price with that amount of disruption will be a floor of $250.

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Bitcoin has already trained the public to accept crypto technology. That 10-15 years was spent by our blockchain friends beating a path for us.

I think we will all be supprised how fast safecoin and the safenet will be adopted. The coin is a small part of this. With non coin services built on top, video services, etc… adoption will spread like wild fire.

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Agree 100% if I incorrectly expressed that.

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Thanks for your insights and commentary piluso - appreciated.

I didn’t mean to disparage Safecoin by calling it a utility token, as I fully understand the scope and significant of such utility - which is why I hold a substantial amount of MAID.

I also find your price estimate entirely reasonable and would agree with it.

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As far as my understanding goes and I refer only to Bitcoin SV, miners are incentivized by the Bitcoin SV network to run full nodes, and they are responsible for verifying transactions for the network. Normal users who run full nodes (copy of the blockchain without creating new blocks), do they contribute to the security of the network? No. My questions is: Does the security of the SafeNetwork is based on Cryptography or economic? What secures the SafeNetwork? Cryptography has been existing for years, what BTC has brought is the economy behind it to secure peer to peer honest money. And bitcoin was never meant to act against the law.

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Your understanding is lacking.
First of all a bitcoin network without a full node dies, period. A network without full nodes it is a network that can’t be relied to be a trustless network and it is a network that can’t verify nor enforce the rules of consensus, and that was the whole point of having a distributed and decentralized network in the first place. If you don’t understand this, you must go to the basics as you fundamentally don’t understand how the Bitcoin network works.

If everyone were using lightweight wallets, a majority of miners could modify the rules as they pleased and nobody would be checking on them without full nodes, they could collude to issue more coins per found block, create coins out of thin air, etc…

Besides that, if you are using lightweight wallets, you are giving up privacy, leaking out that every new Bitcoin address belongs to a single user, and the whole point of the existence of the network is violated: you must trust third parties lightweight developers to behave properly.

What’s the whole point then?

Just to be clear: the innovation and the single purpose of the invention of the Bitcoin blockchain was to enable trustless transactions. But nowadays nobody seems to remember what was all the fuss about, everybody is now using third parties for everything. I mean why do they even bother, lets just fire up a server and run SQL and pretend it is the same, nobody seems to care anymore as long as they are making money… or even worse, even if they are losing money.

Secondly as I told you before: asking if the security is either “economic” or “cryptographic” is very odd.
Without cryptography, no system is secure. Period.
The “economic strength” is just a tool to prevent Sybil attacks and spamming attacks in a decentralized and distributed network.

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If SAFE-network can be worth 10% of that would be nice. :slightly_smiling_face::tada:

Christmas is coming soon and I wish Santa brings Fleming, that would be the best gift ever. :evergreen_tree::santa::gift:

What do you think @Zoki, is it time to put the champagne on cooling? :slightly_smiling_face:

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Maybe a nice vintage champaign, about the same age ad the project would be a good idea.

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Maybe some Scotch?

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Excellent thinking, Zoki. @Antifragile I had the opportunity to taste a 2009 prestige non-vintage (think it had a certain % from 2009 even if it was a blend) this year and it was a wonderful experience, it had a little taste of cream caramel. :slightly_smiling_face:

I had a thought of saving it for Fleming but could not resist, need to get another one.

From Wikipedia:

" Most of the Champagne produced today is “Non-vintage”, meaning that it is a blended[40] product of grapes from multiple vintages. Most of the base will be from a single year vintage with producers blending anywhere from 10–15% (even as high as 40%) of wine from older vintages."

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