Launch Planning: Community Update 🚀

[neo]

@TylerAbeoJordan

By paring the native (without DAG) with the ERC though at 1:1 then we don’t need a DAG as ERC is audited though Eth blockchain.

If that was done then yes it’d be good. Network transactions using the native token without DAG and erc bridge for on/off ramp.

But erc is replacing the functionality of the native token to provide all the node payments

@TylerAbeoJordan

have asked for clarifications on this

Its in the document

[riddim]

There won’t be a crappyChat release with every message costing cents…

App design decisions/data type design decisions will be made with the properties of erc20 l2 in mind… Not the native token…

… I really hope the native token will come soon enough…

[CommunityLink]

@happybeing

What’s our USP now we lack a native super token?

IMO our USP is an open data ecosystem …with universal access … thru your “virtual hard drive” for universal interoperability (no gatekeepers) designed to interactively adapt to your needs See Jim’s “AI outputs a bespoke application to fulfil potential solutions to your personalised needs”. Where the native token is a product ingredient within a “smart citizen” community based multi currency mutual reward ecosystem (community imarket) … driven by the “genetic opened ended evolutionary radically democratising algorithm” approach discussed in your post.
I think your vlab and dweb are core thinking/processes to support the community imarket simulation next steps I’m working on to support autonomi network inception and incubation. I have shared the IEEE autonomi opportunity previously. I’m currently discussing with a key IEEE lead the benefits to the IEEE and a range of others e.g. Autonomi of Co Funding, inception and incubating of an autonomous network (earth friendly ai and standards in their language) to deliver to their 3 “measuring new metrics” (see the PCS dash shared previously) workstreams in their open source community development platform.
The ideal would be to include an IEEE 460,000 member autonomi network sign up offer …as one of the first steps for members to help create the public data utility that supports the IEEE mission and their work. IMO having something demonstrable rather than a concept makes this case much stronger to the IEEE and other partners to support the Autonomi roadmap.

Discussion of Genetic / Open Ended Algorithms on SAFE

Decentralised Search Using Open Ended Evolutionary Algorithm Sketching the architecture for a decentralised search based on an open ended evolutionary algorithm. This is just a framework right now, not much under the hood, just musings: [Search%20app] foragers are individuals in a large population. They take a query, return a result (or results), and sometimes store metadata to improve future searches the meta-algorithm selects foragers from a large population (eg n-per page of results?), …

[TylerAbeoJordan]

@neo

Its in the document

I read the document, the deeper details are still unclear to me.

[riddim]

just for the record @Bux @dirvine… I won’t be able to bother developing much pre native (not sure if that was different without the erc20 thing… Because there’s a lot going on in my life… But now for sure this looks like a lot of friction) … It just looks like a pain with the requirements for batching and everything tx costing cents… When doing a couple of txs per day you’ll be fast at full euros… So doing small things with it doesn’t make sense… The only application I could see now that does make sense for me personally (but that I can’t develop myself) would be a git with autonomi backend… And even that would be annoying when every push costs you 5 cents or so…

… Use cases for this erc20 network will be very different and way more limited than the ones of a network having the dag token…

[TylerAbeoJordan]

What I’m imagining is that the payment system may act like a lightning node does - where the chunk payment takes place in the native token (hidden away in the code) and then after, the final bill is settled up with the ERC. So the bulk of transactions are with the native token.

As you say, there is much friction with using ERC for uploading.

Also, much of the testing we’ve done over the past many months has been with the native token tech, so swapping it out completely at this stage would make much of the beta testing useless as we’d really be starting from scratch if the entire system has to be recoded for ERC.

Edit: What I think a lot of us want to see @bux @dirvine @JimCollinson is a detailed theoretical explanation of how the ERC can work to supplement or completely replace the in-built native token tech. Until then it’s really hard to have any confidence in this plan.

[neo]

@TylerAbeoJordan

where the chunk payment takes place in the native token (hidden away in the code) and then after, the final bill is settled up with the ERC. So the bulk of transactions are with the native token.

The doc says that the nodes (collectively) gives the client quotes and their eth wallet address for uploading the chunks. Then the person performs the smart contract (for a file) which pays each of the nodes the quoted amount and then the client can upload using the transactions details as proof of payment.

There is no native token in the process

If the native token was being used then they would just use it. What you are saying is a double effort process

[TylerAbeoJordan]

I somehow didn’t see that at all in the doc I read. Did they update it later?

So it seems then that they are back to the beginning with testing for payment functionality and it feels to me that it’s not going to work well. My confidence is going down rapidly.

[mav]

the network will be switching over but data will not/cannot

So it’s not the main network. It’s a test network. It won’t have non-blockchain payments or incentives. It won’t have permanent data. That is very clearly not the network.

Yeah sure it will be in the end, but this just isn’t it, so don’t call it the launch.

If the data is not retained, then what is retained to justify calling the switchover the same network? Genuine question, because I can’t tell.

[Dimitar]

@mav

So it’s not the main network. It’s a test network.

Just normal doublespeak, we’re all a bit like that in our heads…

---

Privacy. Security. Freedom

[riddim]

ooooh - there’s the scratchpad datatype - i can swith on/off my christmas tree using that maybe for free … and/or create disposable chats …

still far far away from the real deal xD

[Mightyfool]

Maybe it’s a silly thing to say, so please forgive me, I’m not as technical as the guys on this forum. But wouldn’t a solana based token work better when it comes to cost of uploading and speed? Solana is also widely adopted and wouldn’t compromise the ease of exchange listings etc. I know that PayPal uses the Solana chain for their stablecoin for this very reason and it got adopted extremely fast.

[Bux]

When you add an L2 into the mix the cost is somewhat insignificant difference wise - I appreciate for de-fi and NFTs Solana seems to be catching up, and on occasion has done more 24 volume than etherum, but the guys drilled most into the tools and standards/implementation - as it’s a stepping stone move, etherum as the more established ecosystem with a broader range of applications (for now at least for the timeframe we need) made the most sense.

[dirvine]

I agree and I am very driven to launch something now. I feel that getting out there, having the API for folk to build upon is critical. It has to be solid and cared for, maintaining backward compatibility and being well documented.

Then we can get that first step.

I am against eating the whole biscuit in one go. We must get out and get credible in whatever form allows folk to use the network and operators to get paid. That must be step 1.

I am opposed to waiting on

• NAT detection working for 100% of folk
• Waiting for ipv6 worldwide adoption
• Waiting for exchanges to work with a new currency

That further 18 years will kill the project. I am full in favour of

• Launch the data network right now
• Allow folk to upload and access data from anywhere in the world
• Allow folk with no money to run nodes and earn some
• Build momentum and use cases
• Grow into something very special

The bottom line is we cannot take on the world on many fronts. We can though work with some systems along the way and replace them with better, faster and more secure systems as we have the resources and reach to do so.

It really is that simple. If people think we have the resource to get to the end goal in one step then I think what we have in our history is proof that is too large a first move. We simply must get out there and get real.

[TylerAbeoJordan]

@dirvine

We simply must get out there and get real.

I agree with everything you said there … but this doesn’t appear to me or many others what is being proposed now. Adopting the ERC as a core token seems very likely to introduce many problems and requires quite a bit of code rewriting. So it’s not getting real now … it building another castle in the sky and hoping we can code a foundation to support it. I’m running out of hope myself and would like a clear theoretical explanation of how an ERC can fill the shoes of our native token. If we ditch the DAG but keep the native token tech, we can launch for real, no reset of the network in Jan. required, with what we have now.

[QrJ955nxcap]

October 29th does not mean Secure Access For Everyone. October 29th means Access For Most.

Without security, we can’t have privacy. Thats a given. ERC20-Autonomi isn’t able to fulfill the Secure part of that phrase. It lacks the ability to protect users from being tracked. It puts responsibility on the user to know how to navigate the network that isn’t Autonomi. Imagine someone new to the network and wants to participate. They throw up a node, earn some tokens, and now what? They want to spend them. They see that the old, rusty internet of before has all kinds of places where an ERC-20 token could be used. That new user is going to have one of the worst experiences ever trying to remain private on oldnet. They’ll have to figure out how to use decentralized exchanges, BISQ, VPNs, gift cards, or whatever else. In the perspective of a criminal, this is what you have to do to not get caught. In the perspective of someone trying to avoid being arrested by their government due to not have any free speech laws there, this is terrifying.

Even if 99% of the rest of the network is secure, the token being a 1% privacy flaw is a no-go for what this project should be, in my opinion.

Regarding the lack of working NAT detection for 100% of the users of ERC20-Autonomi, this means that this network is not for Everyone. One of the key components to having this network function as intended is to be accessible and available to ANYONE WHO LIVES IN PLANET EARTH. It shouldn’t matter what device they have, where their geographical location is, or how much money they have.

Please stop rushing this project. It clearly isn’t ready to be truly Secure Access For Everyone.

[Tom1]

I’m curious about how these node operators will get their ERC-20 and if that wouldn’t be too costly.

To be specific, I always had an impression that node operators will get lots of smaller payments when they receive new chunks. Wouldn’t this system be too costly on ERC-20, even if you will use L2 with cents per transaction?

I mean, for example, wouldn’t a node operator get 10 payments worth of $0.10 each and then pay $0.05 gas fee for each incoming transaction, meaning the percentage between income vs gas fee being too high?

[Luis_Gonzalez_Alvare]

We grow older…we go from childhood to adolescence…it’s a “trap”…but there is no escape.
Finally…
Little kids…little problems
Big kids…big problems…
The innocence of the child is over.
Society imposes its rhythms…we receive good values ​​and solid principles in our childhood…but…will that be enough???

[dirvine]

@TylerAbeoJordan

requires quite a bit of code rewriting

That been underway and we are confident of the Oct timescale with it.

@QrJ955nxcap

October 29th does not mean Secure Access For Everyone. October 29th means Access For Most.

If we wait longer it’s access for none!

The journey cannot complete in a single step, this is the important part.

@Tom1

I’m curious about how these node operators will get their ERC-20 and if that wouldn’t be too costly.

We are to use an L2 solution here, not native erc20 transactions. That detail will roll out now.

[QrJ955nxcap]

@dirvine

If we wait longer it’s access for none!

The journey cannot complete in a single step, this is the important part.

This journey is definitely not complete, I’ll agree with you on that.