Launch Planning: Community Update 🚀

[DavidMc0]

@TylerAbeoJordan

By paring the native (without DAG) with the ERC though at 1:1 then we don’t need a DAG as ERC is audited though Eth blockchain.

I imagine this could be a great first step onward from ERC20 as the internal network currency, and could speed up the network considerably vs ERC20.

It would mean that people could use ERC20 for savings / bulk storage of tokens (fully audited supply, access to DEX / hardware storage), and only use the native token for small amounts that can be risked, but still get auditability of the bulk of supply with the ERC token. This would also require decentralised swapping back and forth between the ERC20 and native token.

But, the team would need to be pretty sure that the native token was ready even for this, because imagine the chaos on the network if nodes lost confidence in the token they were earning in? With ERC20 this is avoided while the native token is developed to the point of readiness for nodes to earn in it.

The native token without auditability could be a stepping stone, but the auditability (through DAG or whatever) would mean it could be used with far greater confidence.

[Mightyfool]

@Bux

When you add an L2 into the mix the cost is somewhat insignificant difference wise - I appreciate for de-fi and NFTs Solana seems to be catching up, and on occasion has done more 24 volume than etherum, but the guys drilled most into the tools and standards/implementation - as it’s a stepping stone move, etherum as the more established ecosystem with a broader range of applications (for now at least for the timeframe we need) made the most sense.

Sorry to keep bothering you with this Bux. But I’ve been diving into this (read; ChatGPT dove into it for me) and from my point of view Solana seems like a better option, especially given the worries I’ve seen some more technical guys express.

Solana confirmations come in within 400 ms compared to 15-30 seconds on Ethereum.
When discussing cost, solana varies between $0.00025 to $0.001 where Ethereum L2 is somewhere between $0.01 and $0.10.

I totally get that you want to go with a more established eco system like Ethereum, but Solana is not a small chain by any means. There are big companies choosing Solana over Ethereum for these very reasons. Especially when talking about micro payments like paying for chunks on the Autonomi Network.

From a product point of view, even though I really do believe the team has the intention to eventually integrate the native token, in reality, once launched, we’re going to come across a lot of priority issues and improvements that need to be addressed that there is absolutely no realistic way of telling when the native network token will be replacing the token we’re going to use now. I’m personally worried that (and realistically so) that we’re going to use the token we decide to use now for several years before replacing. Having transaction speed significantly down and transaction costs lowered by 90-95% is very significant for the adoption of the network in the early months/years.

[DavidMc0]

@Mightyfool

Solana seems like a better option

Solana has fairly frequent big outages (apparently around 6 in the last 2 years!)… when did that last happen to the Ethereum network?

Do you think thats acceptable for Autonomi?

[Dimitar]

@DavidMc0

when did that last happen to the Ethereum network?

But l2 solutions are not Ethereum but a centralized service on someone’s server and quite often there are also problems

And yet any L2 is better than Solana…

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Privacy. Security. Freedom

[DavidMc0]

@Dimitar

But l2 solutions are not Ethereum but a centralized service on someone’s server and quite often there are also problems

Good point!

@Dimitar

And yet any L2 is better than Solana…

Comforting to know! Hopefully the most reliable L2s are significantly better than Solana for outages

[neo]

@Bux

When you add an L2 into the mix the cost is somewhat insignificant difference wise

Said so easy

But its great for large movie files and the like. For the user use case of their documents, photos and filesystem backups, it costs a whole lot more.

Cost in manual effort for each file, having to execute the contract for each file (forget apps on Autonomi doing the uploading for you without you doing a manual smart contract execution with an external wallet. No longer does it just get spent out of your Autonomi wallet but have to do manual execution off network

Cost in manual effort buying ETH and the gas coin (2 coins here as I’ve been told by eth expert because of layer 2)

Cost for each few chunk file in actual GAS fees. For someone taking photos on their phone it becomes more costly even if GAS fees are less than a cent. 0.1 cents * 1000 files is not small.

The cost being little is based on a few files being uploaded, if 2 movie files then only 2 manual smart contract execution and 2 small fees. And only one or two reloading of ones eth & gas balances.

BUT if one has 10’s of thousands of photos (I have collected 100’s of thousands I wanted to upload over time. some 60 years of photo taking and 10’s of thousands my mum took before I was born b/w ones) Then there is no way I am doing over 100 thousand executions of a smart contract to upload photos. So there goes one major use case I have. For others it might be a few thousands of photos they wanted. And I doubt they want to do one by one with the manual process of smart contract.

And then gas fees add up to a tidy sum

Then thinking of scaling the network up, even the layer 2 nodes will fill up their disks when a million people want to upload thousands of files each and they do that many smart contracts. So the result is that even L2 fees will dramatically rise to compensate Blockchains expand and keep doing so. And even ETH transaction data on the ETH nodes is not zero

Why didn’t you consider removing the DAG and let the native token fly and use the knowledge of ERC to provide a way to on/off ramp the native token. So one transaction to fill wallet

If you keep saying the fees are nothing much and about the same then it shows a lack of considering the ordinary folk use cases and just the big file uploaders. This is one area I will push back on.

I need to be convinced that its a better way longer term.

Also if we can keep to @dirvine reassurances that helping to launch and work on native token is a good thing. But I feel it will push the native coin onto a back burner that will never come back to a front burner. In a few years David will be doing whatever project he wants, some core devs will have moved on and the new ones will just keep making the network better and since the ERC stuff is “working” the native token will always be Ron (later on)

[scottefc86]

We already have an erc token why can’t this be used to onboard? Seems all the big surprises you guys have at the moment are just making things worse.

[neo]

It has to be different. For period of testing between Oct 29th and end Jan

And it’ll be an issue for the eMAID since thats under a different smart contract

[DavidMc0]

Because it doesn’t have the required supply for launch, and I guess also because it won’t have the right ticker etc for listings.

[scottefc86]

This isn’t launch this is a test. Launch is when I can use native tokens and upload and download using only native tokens.

[neo]

@scottefc86

Launch is when I can use native tokens

That is not Jan '25 launch either. And comes when they get around to work on it to get it working right

[scottefc86]

Honestly can’t believe this is happening

[dirvine]

The only contra position is noting happens though!

A hard bottom line is this.

Exchanges will not list our native token. There is no way to onboard new folk, no way to pay investors or token holders!

So what choices do we have to get folk onboard and get to the level of adoption we need to make our case, or have folk create exchanges for the native token, whether via bisq or some CEX or … whatever?

[Toivo]

All of you presenting various different options to the current plan, please note that the current plan has been in the works for a few weeks already, and none of your ideas are likely to make it any further with Autonomi. This thread is not a request for comments, or opening for a dialogue, but just a way to disseminate information top-down.

I don’t actually get what is the point to release this information to community first, other than to keep up the illusion that the community matters to Autonomi. Maybe it is a way to try to get the most critical voices toned down a bit before a wider publicity, so that it would not be tainted by the critisism of some of us?

Before March 2024 the community used to have discussions with the team about all the apsects of the network, and views of the community were at least taken into consideration. The way things are done now is different. The meaningful conversations and decisions are had and done behind closed doors. The relationship with the community is not about open discussions and co-creating anymore. But the community has just not understood this deeply enough yet. Just look at how the talks about the first users of the network has shifted from individual persons to companies, and how community has been excluded from offering anything else that their hard drive space since this “Beta” begun". Don’t listen the talk, look at the actions.

This may sound overtly critical, but I don’t personally think this change in how things are being organized is necessarily a bad thing. It might be required to get this thing actually launched. I think the idea of discussions and openness lives on just out of habit. It is not what it used to be anymore. And the way it was might be just too inefficient for having anything done in any pre-conceived timeframe.

Regarding the current plan with ERC-20 etc. I have two simultaneous views:

1. Great! Get it done, I need some returns for my investments rather sooner that later. Sounds good enough, isn’t the original vision, but it should still be great network to have.
2. I hope the community has enough talent, capacity and resources to create a sort of fork, or a track that ensures that the network with the native token will come alive at some point in the future.

[scottefc86]

Is there no way to have an erc token to mirror the native token, not actually be a part of the network?

[QrJ955nxcap]

Its definitely not building up hype on the forums. Maybe the Discord folks are excited.

[Dimitar]

I am very excited, with the plan thus laid out the chances of success are quite high

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Privacy. Security. Freedom

[Mightyfool]

@dirvine

Exchanges will not list our native token. There is no way to onboard new folk, no way to pay investors or token holders!

So what choices do we have to get folk onboard and get to the level of adoption we need to make our case

I think this is arguably the most important takeaway. There are several things needed for our success. That’s a useable network, people building on top of it & create momentum for our community to grow. I can see this launch do everything and it’s actually almost happening.

I’m happy to hear that exchange listings are actually considered as part of the design choices made. Like it or not, token offering on exchanges dictate most of the momentum & community growth. Think of all the amazing incentives that are going to pop up by people that are not on these forums yet. It makes me extremely excited, that’s for sure.

[neo]

@dirvine

So what choices do we have to get folk onboard and get to the level of adoption we need to make our case, or have folk create exchanges for the native token, whether via bisq or some CEX or … whatever?

Use the expertise built up with the ERC20 work already done and make a wallet bridge where native token is on/off boarded via it. So the network internally uses native token and people work off network with a ERC20 token and when native bartering/exchange happens then both methods.

Just like when people mint ERC20 the tokens are created, But instead of creating them the smart contract works with pools
on - ramp - send erc20 to pool and the network will send tokens to you Autonomi wallet
off - ramp - send autonomi token to the network pool and ERC20 token sent to your ERC wallet.
Done by integration of Autonomi with smart contract.

Yes involves pools of tokens kept in Autonomi and layer 2. Maybe different pools to keep numbers smaller

Then there is only the transaction to get your native token or transaction to send native token without having to have transactions for each and every chunk/file the person uploads. And if the DAG is a problem for speed then forego the global auditing. It would seem to me that the legal side is then pretty much exactly the same since its still being traced on the ETH network. No cash with the native token

Best of both worlds,

[TylerAbeoJordan]

@dirvine

The only contra position is noting happens though!

It’s not. That’s false dichotomy and binary thinking.

@dirvine

There is no way to onboard new folk, no way to pay investors or token holders!

Untrue. I’ve gone on ad-nauseam about Bisq being an alternative. Sure needs some tender-loving hacking, but technically doable.

@dirvine

to get folk onboard and get to the level of adoption we need

If we can fork Bisq and WASM it, then we can simply put the exchange on the network as a web-app. Who knows who built it … I certainly won’t tell anyone from the government.

Then folk just need to install , go to the app and trade for all the tokens they like with fiat, BTC, Eth, or Monero. … And we become a truly decentralized platform beholden to none.