Launch Planning: Community Update 🚀

[DavidMc0]

On this question;

@Sotros25

it would be great for MaidSafe to clearly state that 1) eMAID/MAID will be 1:1 exchangeable for the native network token

… there’s a clear answer thankfully:

@Bux

You can of course hold the token, for it to be convert to Native when that’s ready

And on this question;

@Sotros25

2. MaidSafe will own creating and delivering the native network token (even if that means hiring people to do the work).

There’s another clear answer:

@Bux

Talking with the guys the native token is still quite far out, so the October token is ‘test’, the January is ‘network’ and the guys (hopefully with some scale to help adoption) will then deliver the next/final phase which is ‘Native’

It does seem that the native token is on the back burner to focus on launching sooner with ERC20, which makes sense to me.

From my perspective Jim and Bux have been clear on a commitment to have developing the Native token in-house in their communications. David has a different approach, but I hope the team does press ahead with a real focus on delivering the native token as soon as they have launched the ERC20 based network and have it running well.

In the Discord stages a couple of weeks back, Jim said there were a few team members very keen to progress the native token when possible, and he is one of them, so that gives me hope.

[Mindphreaker]

The new total max supply according to the whitepaper is 4,294,967,296. This is roughly 10x the amount of the max supply of MaidSafeCoin (452.55M). I read that it is being discussed to reduce the max supply.

If I understood correctly eMAID/MAID converstion to the new ERC20 token will be 1:1. Will the circulating supply at launch of the ERC20 be matched to the current eMAID/MAID? Otherwise I see the possibility for an instant devaluation of the coin which would be against every investor’s interest.

BTW: Why isn’t the max supply of the ERC20 the same as eMAID/MAID?

Does anyone have info on that already?

[DavidMc0]

@Mindphreaker

BTW: Why isn’t the max supply of the ERC20 the same as eMAID/MAID?

Does anyone have info on that already?

I think the Whitepaper has that info; shareholders and the foundation will get their share when the network goes live, which will be at the ERC20 Network Token TGE.

This is why the supply will be greater than eMAID + MAID at TGE, though I think there is some vesting delay (12 months?) on when shareholders get their token, and the foundation likely won’t want to crash the price.

I hope an updated paper on all this is released soon!

So there will be an increased supply, but hopefully a lot of hype if the network is up, running, and functioning well with apps being developed etc… so let’s hope it goes well.

@Mindphreaker

The new total max supply according to the whitepaper is 4,294,967,296

That’s the original max supply, which is now planned to be halved

[JohnM]

If half the tokens are reserved then 1:1 bridging is easy. The reserved tokens can cover any and all swaps between the two tokens. I had assumed this was why the total number was cut in half for the ERC20. If this means at the end of the day that we end up with the original 4B native tokens and no ERC20 in ten years that sure seems like a win. In the mean time it enables swapping back and forth at will.

I think the proposed network launch with ERC20 makes complete sense. It will allow data to build and expand the network and the native token can be slipped in later. If the bridge between the two occurs within the network that seems to maybe get around some of the legal issues. Since the bridge to fiat draws the regulator’s attention making that ERC20 makes sense at least for now. Not entirely ideal and a little disappointing but reality frequently is.

[Toivo]

@DavidMc0

There’s another clear answer:

The problem for me is that whatever degree of clarity is in any communication from the managament, it still is not credible, because they say something, and after a while things seems to be different again, without any clear communication.

A few examples:

ONE:

@Bux saying this:

@Bux

This: “On top”

As a reply to my question:

If people make currencies on top of ERC / NATIVE, I don’t mind. But in my opinion, the base layer has to be served only by the token / currency that MAID is representative of as now.

Sounds clear, but Davids recent posts seem to contradict this.

TWO

All the very clear milestones in the Roadmap - missed without a notice.

THREE

See the image attached. In the middle of August I asked @Bux about if the official token is going to be launched in October. What can one make out of it?

After all this mess I find myself reading and re-reading all they say again and again to try to find possible loopholes they may be trying to leave for themselves in order to not communicate stuff in a binding way. That’s why I’m very skeptical in such expressions as “Native token is very much on the roadmap”. We seen what the roadmaps are worth.

Oh yeah, and hi @Sotros25, nice to see you here again!

[DavidMc0]

@Toivo

That’s why I’m very skeptical in such expressions as “Native token is very much on the roadmap”. We seen what the roadmaps are worth.

Unfortunately I can see where you’re coming from… I know they are buried deep in trying to deliver, but something like a weekly review (even just a forum post) of roadmap progress, hits & misses, and reasons for any delays / changes would have been very helpful in managing expectations and clarifying progress along the way.

At least we can say that they say they are planning to develop the native token… but perhaps community members who are passionate about seeing the native token should take some action (e.g. Native-only testnets, research into potential bridging options) to ensure progress on this front isn’t delayed more than it needs to be.

[scottefc86]

Doesn’t the native token “work” now? isn’t it just wallets, on off ramps that are the problem?

[Toivo]

Personally I’m not qualified to have an opinion about the technical differences between different solutions.

For me the problem is the unclarity about if the network token (whatever it is going to be technically) is going to be the one and only payment method accepted by the network in exchange for storing any data on the network for the life of the network.

Why is this a problem? If some other token, than that introduced with the exchange of MAID/eMAID to the network token is accepted by the nodes, that would mean diminishing of the value of that network token that I have invested in. That would be a problem to me personally and likely to many other investors in MAID/eMAID too - likely leading to lawsuits.

I understand that in the final analysis the node operators decide what currency they accept as a payment for their services - and I understand that it is not in Maidsafe’s power to decide for node operators for the unforeseeable future. But Maidsafe should try to build structures around the payment system in order to block other competing currencies taking over.

[dirvine]

@Toivo

but Davids recent posts seem to contradict this.

Folks, I am not in the office and I am not in meetings. What I post here is my honest feelings of what’s possible. Whereas MaidSafe can create the native currency and … do everything, I feel it’s not necessary.

With the launch and transaction data available there is are possibilities for anyone to do that. Not necessarily tied to data etc. but create currencies. That’s great IMO.

I think some folk want maidsafe to do the currency and

@Toivo

But Maidsafe should try to build structures around the payment system in order to block other competing currencies taking over.

and this is where, as a community member, I disagree.

Yes MaidSafe can, but they are not the only ones.

As a MaidSafe shareholder/employee/team member then maidsafe doing the native token and capitalising on that sounds great.

But my personal driver for the network has always been a network for the people by the people. Not a single company, not a single group, but as quickly as possible having many groups able to work/compete and expand the network.

I think some folk seem to be aggressively pro maidsafe and maidsafe alone, but I honestly feel the more that work on the network the better it is for us all. The more democratic it can be, the more powerful it can be.

Economically, and I feel this is a huge (massive) driver for many, then the key is network use and growing network use. The more folk using it the more money folk make from their tokens. So for those that are driven by profit then I am not sure it makes sense to demand some team with some name as the only ones that deliver that!

tl;dr
I am not arguing maidsafe cannot or will not do a native currency, they will do that. What I am saying is that I believe it makes no sense to assume any team are the only possible team to deliver the best currency. In fact some unknown team may create currency that just takes off and makes sense to also use for data.

It’s a lot like trying to up front a team to create the next app that goes viral. IMO it’s best to let everyone go for it and see what works, not put all eggs in one basket.

I hope this is more clear, but honestly I am at the point of not giving opinions here these days, particularly in relation to anything to do with money. It’s an absolute poison subject to so many in so many ways. It could be fascinating to explore possibilities.

[DavidMc0]

@JimCollinson

I can see a way that could happen, but I would also not want to paint us into a corner with specifics on that right now either.

Are you ready to paint yourself into a corner yet? I want to hear more

Also, is there any published info on what the transactions data type will be like, and what might be possible with it? I couldn’t find it in the docs.

[neo]

@DavidMc0

Sure, I guess it’s possible that once a native token became available, some portion of nodes might run nodes that aim to shut down the ERC20 option by not accepting it.

But, if someone is willing to pay a bit more to use ERC20, you only need one node in 5 to say,

NOTE: this is about the time after native token is in use.

Good luck with that then because you only have luck that enough nodes will accept one or the other tokens/currency. Not something I would risk the reliability for a persistent/“forever” network on, when there is the possibility files cannot be entirely uploaded because too many node operators want the higher priced token no matter what and the clients have to have enough of both tokens when uploading. Yea the general public will love that

I would just KISS and have payments for resources in native token and node operators use bridges to exit their earnings from the network if they don’t want to exit with native tokens. Keeps code even simpler and easy to audit the code. No need for uploaders to have stock of multiple tokens just to upload one file, easy for average mary, jane, tom, jack, to understand when they have no clue on crypto, just get the digital tokens and no crypto needed. No L2 fees blah balh. KISS is the best.

Since I did a lot of supporting the Applications I wrote with normal office staff as the users I got a clear picture that the simpler you make the user interface to something the more they want to use it, and understand it and so on.

very important consideration
Having multiple tokens/currencies to pay for network resources that are ALL not daily fiat will be a nightmare to sell to the general public who have no knowledge of crypto but usually have some knowledge of digital money (reward points use it, banks use it, gift cards use it, and so on) so limiting resource payments to one digital tokens will be real simple for general public in at least 1st world, and enough of the rest of the world that its the way to go.

[DavidMc0]

@neo

Good luck with that then because you only have luck that enough nodes will accept one or the other tokens/currency.

Not only luck; luck + incentives, so I expect it’d be pretty robust. But…

@neo

I would just KISS and have payments for resources in native token and node operators use bridges to exit their earnings from the network if they don’t want to exit with native tokens

…thats cleaner and really, who is going to insist on paying with a more cumbersome, slow, and costly to transact with token once the Native token is readily available & far better suited to the task?

Just need to be sure the transition from data payments with ERC20 to Native can be managed so its seamless for users with ERC20 & node operators.

[Knosis]

@Sotros25

1. As it stands, it sounds like eMAID/MAID will only be 1:1 exchangeable with the “launch” ERC20 token, and therefore eMAID/MAID will not be 1:1 exchangeable for the native token, should that ever be made.

@Toivo

it’s been reasonable for investors in Maidsafecoin and it’s descendants to assume that the “Safecoin” is going to be the one and only currency / token accept by nodes in exchange for any data stored for the lifetime of the network - and that Maidsafecoin represents 1:1 that Safecoin.

@dirvine

I personally would be happy to work with teams to introduce such a currency and identify ways to get it in place. I would hope there is way more than a single approach

2. It also sounds like MaidSafe has no plans to create the native token, and is hoping random “teams” of people will create potential contenders for the native token. That sounds like chaos to me. Also, it makes the purported 50% reduction in max supply meaningless.

If I am misunderstanding the above 2 points, it would be great for MaidSafe to clearly state that 1) eMAID/MAID will be 1:1 exchangeable for the native network token, and 2) MaidSafe will own creating and delivering the native network token (even if that means hiring people to do the work).

Can we get clarification on these points?

@dirvine

I am not arguing maidsafe cannot or will not do a native currency, they will do that. What I am saying is that I believe it makes no sense to assume any team are the only possible team to deliver the best currency. In fact some unknown team may create currency that just takes off and makes sense to also use for data.

What I’m not understanding is how does this affect those of us who’ve held all these years. Why would the network have nodes transacting in any other tokens other than the temporary ERC20 and native token? Why would this be allowed in our version of the network before the native token is perfected? If people want to fork the network and run their own version with their own token fine but why let people compete on this network for the “best” currency against those holding eMAID/MAID, Native?

@dirvine

As a MaidSafe shareholder/employee/team member then maidsafe doing the native token and capitalising on that sounds great.

The native token is a pillar of the network. It’s part of the roadmap for launch. There is no launch without it. Call it what you want but it’s not a launch.

@Bux

Talking with the guys the native token is still quite far out, so the October token is ‘test’, the January is ‘network’ and the guys (hopefully with some scale to help adoption) will then deliver the next/final phase which is ‘Native’

Waiting from October to January for the native token does not seem bad. How will the ERC20 and Native Token be capped to the supply which we recently heard was halved?

@dirvine

@FrankieJ

If someone comes along and “uses the tech” (transaction data type) to create a native, non-blockchain token, let’s call it Zippy Coin, and it takes off, and it becomes the hot new zippy currency on the network, eventually replacing Ant Coin as the preferred payment of data storage. And it trades at say… $20 a coin… while Ant Coin languishes around $1.00…

Instead some new currency comes along. Let’s call it X.

So X could be based on the transaction data type or not (important)

• X is amazing
• X is the new thing, everyone want to use it
• X is super efficient and transaction free etc. etc.

So nodes running day, hey we want to use X not erc20. A plan is then hatched to allow the cut over form erc20 to some new currency called X. All farmers who agree start to accept X.

X takes off or does not, we cannot control that (thank God).

So folk could gamble, sell, buy, hold or any combination and some would win, some would lose and do on. The network though does not really care, it just wants to be paid in the curry its operators decide upon and it will balance payments against storage to provide the cheapest available.

In short, the network nodes don’t care about the currency. The operators will and they need to decide.

So like bitcoin, say. In a few years it will need to move to a quantum proof signature algo, lets say FALCON, it’s miners will have to agree (hard fork) and continue. It’s a lot like a hard fork, but s it includes data that fork needs to be popular enough to carry all the data.

Hope that helps? (it involves money and everyone will want t be the winner, but for winners there are losers, so it’s best there is no winner here, just a smooth transfer)

The operators decided and they decided a long time ago it was the Native Token. If operators want a different token they can fork the code and go with it. It’s hard to hear you think it’s just fine to leave those who funded this network open to the greed and dishonesty of the crypto industry suggesting it would be healthy competition. Crypto is a $2 Trillion dollar market. Greed and unethical behavior is foundational to crypto. Which is why it was said this is “Not a crypto project”. Here we are with an ERC20 coin no hard date on the arrival of the native token and how the supply will be locked to the stated supply.

It seems a path is going to be coded into the network that opens it to the most corrupt industry to ever exist to compete with this projects token holders. It’s hard to hear. Difficult to understand.

I’ve encourage friends and family to invest in this project and now I’m not sure what to tell them. Is this network going to be coded to support the token holders that make it possible? Will transaction types that allow for subversion of the native token be delayed until the Native Token is perfected and supply of ERC20 and Native Token locked?

I understand you have own your home and will be okay financially. Those of us that are not don’t want to be offered up to the crypto industry sacrificially for token we never invested in.

@dirvine

If that were to happen and you held on to your coins then you could lose out. I said I did not want to design this right now, but that would be a terrible way for it to happen.

@dirvine

Data is what makes the network valuable. Data is becoming more valuable by the day as evidenced by the number of data centers being built. Why would a native token holder lose as the value data increases? It would only happen if it were allowed to happen. You seem nonchalant about all of this.

[loziniak]

@Knosis

@dirvine

I am not arguing maidsafe cannot or will not do a native currency, they will do that. What I am saying is that I believe it makes no sense to assume any team are the only possible team to deliver the best currency. In fact some unknown team may create currency that just takes off and makes sense to also use for data.

What I’m not understanding is how does this affect those of us who’ve held all these years. Why would the network have nodes transacting in any other tokens other than the temporary ERC20 and native token? Why would this be allowed in our version of the network before the native token is perfected? If people want to fork the network and run their own version with their own token fine but why let people compete on this network for the “best” currency against those holding eMAID/MAID, Native?

Perhaps just another team could make a version of node, that would just shun the nodes, that are double-quoting?

But all these would be just some independent projects, and without a big support, marketing and so on, I doubt they would be used more, than official ones. Even for a fork introducing proper NT, agreed by the community and investors, it would probably be hard to compete with official nodes/clients.

[dirvine]

@Knosis

You seem nonchalant about all of this.

I have been working on that very thing for over 20 years, 18 of those as Maidsafe.

I think your depiction is about as wrong as you can be. You say data is the most valuable (I agree and have always said so) and then go on to speak of native token as the only way forward. If data is so important then launch with ANY token works.

For the screaming about native token, please outline to me exactly how it works and why it’s better. (I feel it is but interested in the god like demands it’s how we launch the data part of the network)

Then explain how people can benefit from it now to get a return on investment.

I find this discussion disturbing and full of wrong statements. In addition the language used and demands given are frankly appalling.

If data is important then for Christ sake, let’s launch a data network that’s economically viable. Then let’s make it better over time. Otherwise let’s just stop right now and wait for those bridges/on ramps/bisq integrations/users accepting no value/users going through hoops to store data and all that follows.

We need a level of sure footed clear thinking here. We can launch this now or we don’t. Many people are saying don’t and don’t reward the investors and e/maid holders.

I find this discussion has gotten bogged down in some parallel universe.

This is a like a war we are in as a project, it’s not a straight line, it’s not an all or nothing, we can take the wins where we can, but the single most important thing we must do is be a real network.

We cannot go straight to build starship 5, we need to start with less and move forward, we need to start getting traction, cash and support and move forward, we need to take the long view and stop this short view nonsense.

Either we move or stand still, it’s as simple as that.

I will not answer any more demands for

• clarify this immediately
• detail this design
  or other such stuff. I am as open as I can be, but recently this openess has allowed some people to be downright demanding and rude, it’s not ok to be like that.

What we are doing here is getting to market with the community. We will never get there by pleasing every single community member, but we can get there.

It’s time to move on to the next part of this story, the destination has not changed, at least in my eye and any person stating otherwise is plain wrong and much more wrong than they realise.

[Toivo]

@dirvine

It’s time to move on to the next part of this story

I truly am sorry, but I can’t do that before the position of a MAID holders is clarified and secured. I realize this not nice behaviour, and works against a good atmosphere etc. But my voice comes out of economic despair. I’m deeply in debt, and my chances to get out of it is to a great degree dependent on the money I have loaned to Maidsafe with the assumption that the token used in the network to come, is the only token, without rivals. I don’t mind about the technical aspects (Erc-20, whatever), as long as the financial view is that which it has been for so many years. Like @Knosis I have also dragged some friends in this and feel responsible for them too.

I haven’t seen you addressing the worries of people, that have invested in the token, and token only. Do you understand what worries us?

[Mightyfool]

@Toivo

I truly am sorry, but I can’t do that before the position of a MAID holders is clarified and secured. I realize this not nice behaviour, and works against a good atmosphere etc. But my voice comes out of economic despair. I’m deeply in debt, and my chances to get out of it is to a great degree dependent on the money I have loaned to Maidsafe with the assumption that the token used in the network to come, is the only token, without rivals.

Sorry to hear that mate. I can understand your worry, being in though times financially really weighs on you.

I think this may be quite a difficult situation for the Maidsafe team. I’m sure most of you are aware that due to regelatory climate Maidsafe is in they can’r really talk about price. As a community member, luckily I can.

It’s undeniable that the recent shift to erc20 (for us) has a big impact. What I’m reading through the lines here though is that this decision is not just based on it being “easy” to implement. Regelatory requirements, exchange listings, ease of use for people familiar with crypto, on/off-ramp etc. Where all part of the decision. To me it sounds like the team has very much thought this through and has a very clear, probably only partially layed out to us, path to massive adoption.

That aside, a year ago, many of us may not have dreamt of going live anytime soon. If you haven’t fully written of your investment yet in your mind, you’re doing something wrong on my honest opinion. I have never been more confident in the path forward than I am today (ok, maybe the day the roadmap came out was a bit better). The team has brought us this far, lets trust them to do what’s best for the project. In the end, it’s them in the know about partnerships, contracts, exchange contact, runway. We’re just from thw outside, asking legitimate questions, but after a while the discussion has been dragging on long enough to agree to disagree and have a little faith.

[dirvine]

This

@Toivo

I’m deeply in debt, and my chances to get out of it is to a great degree dependent on the money I have loaned to Maidsafe

Does not imply this

@Toivo

, is the only token, without rivals.

That’s a bad way to look at things, very bad.

You say you are desperate for cash, we are doing something that allows you to get cash and you are complaining strongly. This is what I don’t get, others are berating the team for doing something that will please investors as they get returns. You are doing the opposite or you are saying you want much much larger returns and are certain a new currency with zero traction is that way forward.

The message is total confusion here. If you are broke and want cash, this launch will help that. Delaying for however many years it would take to get traction with a native token will not help.

We cannot please both sides of this coin, you either want a return or you don’t. What’s on offer is such a return and you are arguing against it for something I am not sure of.

If you are broke then surely a return now is what you need?

@Toivo

. Like @Knosis I have also dragged some friends in this and feel responsible for them too.

Again allow them to get a return. I am completely bewildered by this argument.

[loziniak]

@dirvine

doing something that will please investors as they get returns

…unless some team creates a token, that would overtake the network and dump the value of ERC20 befote the team creates their NT – that’s what I think @Toivo has on his mind.

[Bux]

Hi Toivo, I will catch-up on this thread, but to note, following the updated WP being released (we are designing this for a healthy token which will also help ensure we have a functioning network), I will be on the Discord stages this coming Tuesday, will ask @rusty.spork to collect questions ahead of time and will address all those that are relevant and reasonable