Besides, with Account Abstraction on Ethereum, there can also be āfreeā transactions, so if you run a Autonomi node and use such a service, there are options to pay directly with the erc20 token:
Privacy. Security. Freedom
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Iām just pointing out that youāre missing information. Account abstraction is implemented on Near and 16 million people are mining and paying transactions with their steps in Sweatcoin without having to pay 1 cent and thanks to the bridges between Ethereum and Near you can exchange Sweatcoin for Ethereum and bridge it to the Ethereum network. I donāt see why this shouldnāt be used for Autonomi too.
Privacy. Security. Freedom
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Interesting.
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If Iām reading @happybeing accurately, it isnāt cynicism heās displaying. As a longstanding community member @DavidMc0, I presume at some stage youāve tried to tell someone about this project. Think of the change in the story from the perspective of someone outside the project.
Hereās the story we could honestly tell people before:
Yes, there are boatloads of crappy projects offering nothing, simply trying to make easy money, but this one is legitimately not like that!
And now we wonāt talk to those normal people anymore because itād be an absolute waste of time. People are tired of being talked down to about cryptocurrency, AI, or whatever other buzz word is rubbed in there face at that moment in time.
So who will we talk to now? Well, suddenly itās developers with experience in ETH and related technologies. And whatās the message?
We promise weāre like the other crypto projects, but with some interesting bits in the backend, come get involved! Weāre not really blockchain though, itās just that temporarily weāre adding an ERC20 token because we canāt get our own far superior native token on the exchanges!
I donāt think itās cynical to consider this a sudden and major change in the project.
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Every reason the team has given on the discord talk las night, I am not been able to say that they are not doing the right things.
Only question marks right now:
If Eth L2 performance will keep up in an acceptable way.
Bridging when looked yesterday cost about 12$ in gas. So it raises the barrier to entry, 1 cat picture would be very expensive, at least bridging minimum 50-100$, too not lose rough amount to gas fees. And the bridging also needs to be dedicated, bridging back to Eth would also be 12$. So if Bridge to L2 and then back then if started with 50$ only 25$ would be left. I only remember payed about 150-200$ to bridge to L2 and back, bad memories. So native token needs a large push after launch when new funds coming in, so the network will be able to reach itās full potential. Also important with simple documentation on how to bridge, videos an so on. Iāve found it to be difficult those times I tried, losing unnecessary money, time, also frustration.
But Eth L2 seems like a valid starting point to get things going after 18 years.
(Edit, @Dimitar showed me the way towards enlightment)
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I think you donāt understand - if the token is placed directly on l2 there is no need to cross a bridge. Many of the major exchanges have direct integration with l2 ie. the path fiat -ć l2 does not pass through a bridgeā¦
Privacy. Security. Freedom
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That did not know about a few years or so ago. So how expensive is it, exchange fee to withdraw Eth L2 token? Less than bridging? If can go from Fiat to L2 or trade on an exchange and withdraw with a low cost then that would be fine.
As to whether these already-underway-and-not-under-discussion changes are necessary or a good idea or āthe only wayā, my opinion hardly matters. Others have already said the things Iād like to say.
In private discussions and probably on here once or twice Iāve been saying for years that itās miraculous that the developers are still going towards the original vision, and havenāt caved to the threat of violence from the state (legal cases, prisons, etc). While I canāt expect anyone else to risk prison for their values and beliefs, itās not like this reality suddenly became the case yesterday.
The network as originally conceived was always going to be extremely threatening to centralised power in all its forms.
Maybe that more radical network (the original one) can still emerge in one of the ways described either by @dirvine or one of the other commenters here. This new plan certainly looks like a less risky way of trying to get there. It certainly looks like a more mainstream way to get there, and one more amenable to investors and profit-seekers.
And who knows, maybe itās the only way that gives that hypothetical future network a chance. I donāt know. The opposite could of course be true too though, and it could be the path most likely to stifle any chance of that original network emerging. We could be witnessing the death knell.
In any case, it seems to kick the can down the road and foist the responsibility onto others. At other stages when compromises were made, we were always told: it doesnāt hurt the core values. Itās not ideal, but we have to do it. Weāre still going to make the original vision, by hook or by crook. Here, definitively, weāre being told: ah, after all, we do have to compromise on the core values - temporarily, of course.
I hope for the best and expect the worst, as always, while maintaining massive scepticism and stomaching a fair amount of sadness. I donāt blame the maidsafe people (@Bux, @dirvine, @JimCollinson, etc) at all actually, Iād just like to underline that. Itās a hard world, in many ways, and I donāt know if I could have done more myself.
Otherwise, to finish - thank you to @happybeing, @neo, and @Bogard (probably others too, but these comments stood out) for your honesty, each of you in your own way of course. The continued efforts, engagement and emotions of the community when it comes to the original vision are the main thing keeping that vision going, at this stage, in my eyes.
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Thanks @JayBird for putting my exact thoughts into words more eloquently than I ever could.
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If this really is the case, then it might be easy enough for the community to launch a parallel version of the network that uses the native token right from the startā¦ 
A version that is willing to take āThe risks of the UTXO approach for launchā, that according to Network Rollout Update are:
Summary
The risks of the UTXO approach for launch
Taking a holistic view of the market, audience and space that the network needs to secure to thrive, there are several avoidable issues that, by electing to sequence the solution and its intended payment solution, we can avoid:
Integration & Accessibility: As a novel approach there is no out-of-the-box integration with other tools and platforms across the broader cryptography ecosystem (wallets, DeFi platforms and centralised exchanges).
User Confidence: With new payment technology integrated into the storage solution the Network will be introducing new/potential attack vectors, elements of untested variance.
Questions around Security: Auxiliary services such as an EVM bridge (required for users to exchange their network token via exchanges), will require extensive security validation to avoid exploitation.
Iāve always imagined the network starting in a grassroots way, and a bit shaky, maybe even shady, like Bitcoin did. Then reach an unstoppable momentum and go from there.
I really think it would be great to have these both options in parallel. Of course it would need that famous someone to do the actual work for the native token network.
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I agree on much of this and just feel I need to point out. This journey has never been a straight line, Itās too big for that, but less large now with changes in the environment (tech) and more hazardous in changes in the other environment (regulators).
If we had in 2015 what we have now, the picture would be very different. Poloniex would have listed us (they said so) and we would have been up and away, but we are where we are now.
It has been a hard journey and I can tell you itās taken a lot for me personally to keep going. The amounts of opinions you have to take on board is amazing.
To stick to the goal and move forward takes courage and it takes an awful lot of very deep introspection. Sometimes it means step back on X an push forward Y and so on.
Itās not simple and everyone in my private life wonders why I still do this, but I believe in freedom and I have investors of many kinds to repay. I donāt let folk down. Thatās why some barbs seem very sharp and focussed even to the point of accusations of lying. Thatās hard to take, but any scammer would say the same, so itās hard to prove a negative.
The only thing we can say is this is 18 years, we have launched nothing that sticks and I feel now is the time to launch the network. It will be very data focussed, the data types and API will be the clear focus of work, getting those slick and correct will take devs working with them and feeding back.
In parallel the currency parts are still important, but less so. We have always had a cryptocurrency and it feels like that has been welcomed by all. The values of that are clear to me, basically no centralised data structure and very high throughput. But backed by data. Using another currency though seems like folk saying we have given up on the whole thing, that is wrong IMO.
The currency part amazes me though, just the notion of using existing tech seems like folk calling the whole thing a betrayal is a step too far in my eyes.
We are open source, if folk want to force change they can fork and do that, but it takes money, effort and plenty of time. As I have said many times in the past, we want privacy, security and freedom for all in the digital world. So I donāt care of somebody else does that, if our goal is those 3 elements why would we not be delighted they were achieved.
This step is us accepting existing tech in part of the stack, it does not change how we handle data and it should not. But when we are handling data well and folk create apps then it all changes. With that comes money, resources and time.
So, unless we do something to monetise and repay folk soon we risk the whole shebang on dying on our swords with dignity, but letting down everyone who supported us. I appreciate the shock, but I feel that we all as a community need to calm down and understand this is still the same journey with the same goals.
We just cannot keep going without having something out there and being used. We need real world feedback and use of what we are building. So start the journey, take a first step and move on from there.
Getting to a place thatās more open, more decentralised and with more builders and core dev teams is a solid short term goal from where we currently are.
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In the end, all cryptocurrencies out there are test nets for Bitcoin. If a broader idea works it will be integrated in Bitcoin. When ETH decided to switch to POS and change their supply issue it signed their own death sentence (which is already reflected in the ETH/BTC price). IMO itās also against the core principles of MaidSafe, as ETH at this point is basically a state controlled network due to POS where staking nodes have to comply with regulations.
I think it would be far better for the project if it would settle for a token based on Bitcoin with better privacy over Lightning, hence: Taproot Assets
Would like to hear the devs thoughts on this and hope there is a bottom up discussion from devs and management here. I donāt see any drawdown except it being a rather new technology - but since when did SAFE fear adopting new technologies.
Iām pretty confident that if the network itself works but runs over ETH it soon will lead to a fork to BTC / Lightning which in the end takes over the original one.
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We have been looking at everything we can and also what parters can help us. Itās not a simple picture, but I feel the team are working hard towards a goal. They have not looked at every single thing out there. We did look at lightning etc. as well though
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If you have time could you make simple instructions in the future, how to from Fiat to get in/out of a L2 token the cheapest ways and what to avoid, bridging and such. That would probably help many and not having them make my mistakes when it comes to bridging, which would be off putting to many people.
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You could do that today if you wanted, all the code is there. But how will it fair is the question? what are the incentives, and how will you grow its use, and the capacity that it requires without the connections to wider economies?
How new money/value flow into the system to factilitate the required data growth without the on ramp?
And how long will node operators stick around for without a means to off-ramp their earnings in a way that will let them cover their expenses?
Maybe you accept you donāt need either of these things and that the network will exapand and have the resilience required through barter alone, until the native integrations come. It would be a worthy chanllenge for sure, but not without its risks.
A worthwhile experiment perhaps? But the risks and challenges are obvious and can failure modes can be predicted. Itās a hit and hope.
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In the end, node operators will choose the most economical network (lowest costs, highest yield). Therefore a BTC/LN fork over ETH is most likely to happen. A magical native token might be even better but atm itās just a concept. So far I havenāt heard a logical argument why Autonomy should not implement a token over Taproot Assets.
ETH being a more established solution is a weak argument as my previous post points out. Itās a dead end.
Who uses this? Itās a serious question, I literally donāt know anyone who uses it except Erica Wall, but even she finds Australian female rappers more interesting right now?
Privacy. Security. Freedom
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The network with native token isnāt ready. So it canāt just be forked, it needs to continue to be worked on or it will remain unworkable. That work has stopped now and is unlikely to resume IMO.
Thatās literally why they pulled all marketing, meaning the waves didnāt fill, why rewards ābetaā was a shambles and why I spent months fighting problems with the token which they refused to help with.
I never believed October launch was realistic or that they had a beta network, and through the work I did I saw this was looking worse all the time. This is still alpha code.
So thereās no prospect of this being forked and run as a rival and they know this very well.
All of that is why they have delayed launch. They told us there was no reason for a delay even while they were planning this and working on the code in secret. Itās one thing to work on things in secret, but another to say nothing has changed which we were told repeatedly until very recently.
I also question the ethics of hiding the severity of Davidās absence. He has been the single most important person to this project and is also the reason many of us supported this project, including myself. Iāve mentioned that many times now.
Iām sorry if hearing any of this hurts David but Iāve never accused you of lying or making these changes. That process has been hidden from us.
What Iām talking about is my personal experience this year, most of which you were I now realise, probably unaware of and not involved in.
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Although it is brand new there are already plenty of projects, here is a good overview: GitHub - 22388o/awesome-taproot-assets: A curated list of Taproot Assets projects and resources
Taproot Assets basically allow you to do everything you can do on ETH, SOL etc. but on BTC/LN with far better economics. IMO in 2-3 years all tokens will run on BTC as it is the only (really) decentralized and secure network out there.
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