Launch Planning: Community Update 🚀

[dirvine]

I don’t see one. I am working on some ideas but I am convinced they are for the future and not immediate use. The network launches with 4 data types

1. Chunks
2. Registers
3. Transactions
4. ScratchPad

These are the key issues in my mind. This allows the function of the network to actually exist, None of these directly depend on anycurrency. But they do need paid for, whether in seashells or eth or btc or native tokens. That payment must go direct to the node operators and do so without human intervention. That part is the link with currency,

So the Transaction data type is where I see we can achieve everything we want and more. It’s able to run a currency an and do so at speeds that allow global trade in nano payments. That is incredible.

If these things are all available to all devs, not just core devs or Autonomi staff etc. then we have something very different at play. I believe something that helps us reach our goals.

I personally don’t yet have the mechanism to bootstrap a native currency, but I do have basic ideas, like an airdrop type approach to running nodes at a point in time. That gets the token to as many as possible, but in a way that the supply is capped (a good thing IMO).

That means all operators at some point in time get a % of the total supply. Note no worry about stakeholders here, they were all paid out with the erc20 type launch. So we are in a much simpler place economically.

That native token every operator now has is worthless as there are no exchanges. However there is a NFC type worth that can be exploited to bootstrap a pure native never FIAT currency.

Then there are 2 choices, both of which may happen

1. Folk trade goods and services for that currency
2. Folk create FIAT on/off ramps for that currency.

This is a basis for a plan to eventually have the network shift, but it’s quite nice in some ways, mainly

1. No worries about existing investors (as above)
2. Can be executed by anyone not only a company etc.
3. No need to try and fork the whole network, people can create such systems and compete with each other to see what works (likely the currency with no tax or fees).

There is a lot more, but it all means we need and desperately need

1. A network running in some form
2. Investors paid off (investors == equity investors and (e)MAID holders

This current plan is a step that I feel personally gets us a chance of the dream, which to me is a global network for everyone to participate in and one that is censor free, available and at a minimum (true) cost to all.

[Toivo]

Another opinion:

I think Autonomi needs to be designed for quick adoption and success. And taking care of all the regulatory hassles and what not.

But I would also like to see a network that is in all its’ aspects designed for maximum privacy, and then just see if it is going to be successful or not. More like grassroots movement style.

At this point I don’t think the two can be the same network, for at least two reasons: 1. the legal issues for the developers. 2. I don’t trust the developement of the native token will really take of after the ERC-20 is working on it’s place.

[neo]

@dirvine

So the Transaction data type is where I see we can achieve everything we want and more. It’s able to run a currency an and do so at speeds that allow global trade in nano payments. That is incredible.

I think if we knew you were wanting to rewrite the transaction system (token) and this ERC20 is more of a stop gap measure for a period of time (months/year or so) then people would have understood the measure of incorporating the ERC 20 token

[esquilax]

@dirvine

Exchanges will not list our native token. There is no way to onboard new folk, no way to pay investors or token holders!

Sad to hear that finally my prediction I made here (MaidSafeCoin (MAID & eMAID) - Price & Trading topic (Part 2) - #6457 by esquilax) has come true. I agree with the views in this thread that this is now a blockchain project like many others and will ultimately go down into insignificance. It was a heavily centralized project anyway due to a company doing the development (and ultimately holding a large fraction of the tokens to keep the network alive initially through payouts) already and now it also shows it openly.

[dirvine]

@neo

I think if we knew you were wanting to rewrite the transaction system

The beauty is we don’t need to rewrite it. That’s what we are releasing here.

[riddim]

are we confident with ipv6-stuff / changing node sizes we can manage those changes without resetting repeatedly again so the data network really is the permaweb after January? (just honest question because I have a hard time getting a feeling for it)

[dirvine]

I am pretty confident in some things, but I want to push for the node size to be set at an initial realistic value. The current cap is for testing and it needs to increase. So

disk size, ipv6 and all are just changes to the node and should not require a reset. They may require nodes know of the changes, i.e. a 2 step upgrade for the size increases, 1 step to allow both sizes and the second to enforce the new size. Ipv6 is just another connection mechanism, with libp2p MultiAddress format it’s just adding a line to that, plus testing of course, but that’s just an upgrade in real time.

The API is more critical though and getting the network actually launched will force that issue to be settled and upgrades to be also forced to not require a reset. I feel a hard fork will not be possible on this network and I also feel that is correct.

[riddim]

okay - that sounds pretty good

if we ignore the marketing fluff this is a path that can work … and if there’s a way to get to native token (and pay for storage in the network with it) later from within the network … I think there’s a chance that exchanges erc20/native fiat/native might arise running within the network itself … then the transition is possible … if we end up stuck with the erc20 crutch that would be a pain to see … not precisely what we hoped for (and you actually worked for very hard) all those years …

[dirvine]

I think if we have the transaction types and do similar to even what I wrote above then we are in a. good place. If many can create currencies and their own rules we can let the market decide. In that way we move away from opinion based design to a market led approach. Right now the network needs the company and so on. If we break that link then I think we actually democratise the design of the currency.

In short, I believe we have probably the fastest and most concurrent currency possible. It’s encumbered at the moment with a tax (paying out investors etc.) that makes is less efficient. If we can get to a place where anyone can define the currency, using this very high speed transaction data type, then I hope we find the “golden” system. That would be the system the market chooses and not one a bunch of well meaning devs create.

At least I would hope so and the more open we can make this, the better IMO

[riddim]

which would mean that TXs would no longer be free of charge (?)

[dirvine]

If the market chose to pay tax then yes, but I think the winning currency would be the most tax/fee free one.

[riddim]

okay - then I’ll await the API and the Data Type interfaces … this will be super interesting I guess

the idea of independent third parties integrating tokens into the network natively without the need to piggyback on the native token is a bit unexpected and sounds really cool

[riddim]

@dirvine

the winning currency

not necessarily designed by you … how could the omni->native swap then be honored …?

[happybeing]

The API isn’t going to answer much TBH, and what David has described as the API is not much more than we have now as far as I can tell. It’s mostly docs.rs with inline tests and if you’ve not touched that before I think most will find it impenetrable. Go try and use Registers based on the docs.rs for the relevant crates.

Even expert coders will still require a lot of supporting docs, dedicated forum etc, which are not planned if I understand correctly. “Toolkits” are mentioned in the plan but nothing to say what that means.

Benno has some web API in play but I haven’t looked into it. Maybe that is one of the toolkits? All thIs is supposedly out two weeks ago, so we can’t have much longer to wait.

There’s a PR from Benno which folk can dig into to see for themselves but I’ve had to much disappointment these past months to look myself.

Talk of all these currencies is pie in the sky now.

We are going to be given a centralised Blockchain based system that is vulnerable in more ways than most here realise with vital features missing or compromised in ways that will derail and sabotage progress towards the goal we signed up for.

Investors will profit, Autonomi tech will add value to Blockchain projects and centralised L2 services. Adversaries will have a large number of attacks available against individuals, operators and the network. But investors will profit so it’s not all bad. I do agree on that.

This has been presented as an essential step in an all or nothing format without justification. We have no say here now, the community is another tool to be used to drive goals that we are not privy to any more.

There are other ways forward, I don’t doubt that, and there may be good reasons for choosing this over them. I don’t agree with the idea we have to have on/off ramps right now, or that this is the best way to do that.

But I’ve failed to get much more straightforward points over many times in the past few months.

I’ve also had enough of slogging my guts out for one set of aims while being lied to, obstructed and treated disrespectfully - as Autonomi pivoted away in secret for a different set of aims.

[dirvine]

@riddim

integrating tokens into the network natively without the need to piggyback on the native token is a bit unexpected

To be clear, the data payments would initially be singe currency only, so say erc20, but the ability to create more currencies and compete for that business would be available.

I see it like this

1. You set up a currency
2. Air drop or however you distribute it and write a genesis block

Then encourage folk to use it (you may need to provide a wallet) and set up ways to pay for goods and services, maybe even pay for data storage. Then over a period persuade folk to use a new node type that accepts your currency, perhaps in tandem with erc20 to begin with.

That’s a scratchy picture, but I think we can have a great many clever mechanisms here that we probably cannot even imagine.

[ptv]

This is probably going to seem stupid, but I’ve never been interested in Etherium and blockchains generally register as not my kind of deal. Attempting to read up turns up a lot of unfamiliar territory.

As a participant in the Beta program, I’m eventually expecting some tokens to come my way. Are these effectively immovable unless I buy Etherium?

Will it be possible to code apps exclusively using an Autonomi API or are we going to need to build some kind of interaction with the Etherium block-chain (or some layer thereof that I wouldn’t know how to ask about correctly)?

[dirvine]

I am not up to speed with the beta prog, but tokens paid will be the erc20 AFAIK.

In terms of designing apps on the network you need the API and that will include the payment information. This is the case whether erc20 btc or native, there is a payment to be made. As I said earlier, it could be seashells, but there is a payment.

The proposition is the exact same, you can

• Earn tokens via farming
• Buy tokens on an exchange
• Get tokens for any (e)MAID you hold
• Get tokens as an equity holder payout

Whether these tokens from the exchange are called, erc20, eth btc or SNT, you go through the same process. So there is really no change there AFIAK.

[Dimitar]

@ptv

Are these effectively immovable unless I buy Etherium?

It depends on which layer 2 they choose. There are layer 2 blockchains with their own tokens, there are also those using eth for gas…

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Privacy. Security. Freedom

[dirvine]

@neo

So one of the major problems is to replace it with ERC transactions. The native is there fore basically sidelined.

To be clear Rob. There is no need to audit IMO, it can be done via a DAG at the client and that’s cool. But the dynamic parent checks are way good enough. This means not check only one parent, but many depending on the transaction capability.

So speed is not the reason for erc20, it’s much more related to FIAT conversion capability (exchanges)

[happybeing]

@ptv

Are these effectively immovable unless I buy Etherium?

That’s correct. And do you know what can get your account frozen, and leave you without cash, unable to pay bills, mortgage etc:

• trying to buy £200 of Eth with an app, and refusing to provide the bank with a document history to try and r satisfy them that you are competent to buy £200 of crypto.

And that situation is getting worse.

What better time to come up with a new, non-Blockchain currency that anyone can earn using their old PC?

What better argument to use with exchanges or anyone struggling with this and the many other issues with Blockchain?