I understand your point. And I genuinely think itās good that it is not the only path forward now. But it would be damn interesting to see how that would go.
So whats your solution? Do u think exchange accept new coded native coin? +With separate eth20 tokens, u could reset network and lost ājustā data not whole economist
Yeah for sure. Networks need competition!
Nobody outside Autonomi is in a position to say what the options are. We have been treated like mushrooms. Told things that were obviously untrue to some of us, or at least which were very hard to believe.
I was in a bind early on. Do I share those misgivings and spoil the party, or trust that this is a new phase where critique needs to be rationed.
I did raise concerns, but didnāt push too hard. It was a new team and I chose to support them and this new approach the best ways I could. As I have done for over a decade.
They betrayed my trust and it should be obvious by now that it makes no difference what any of us out here think.
So I canāt be constructive, I can only point out what I donāt like, donāt believe in and why I canāt support this. If you want to know what I do believe in look at the fundamentals.
I asked for those fundamentals to be reviewed against the January product and for the January product to be added to the storage systems comparison table alongside the initial Autinomi product we were told to expect in October.
That would help everyone to understand the implications of this change, but Iām not expecting any response.
Why wouldnāt they want people to understand this?
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It does feel as though the last few months have been smoke and mirrors.
It seems as though this has been planned for a while, that does leave a bitter taste.
Many of us felt something was not right and it is now obvious those feelings were justified.
Personally I feel like the new plan has a greater chance of launching the network ānowā which I am happy to support.
The feeling of being played is no good though.
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The fundamentals in question that are impacted in January are:
3. Allow the transfer of the Network currency to any user free of transaction costs
Transfers between users will not have any transaction fees. However should any associated data be stored to the Network, a Data Payment may still be required.
7. Let users utilize any of their identities to send and receive payments
Each individual must be able to use any of their identities as a wallet address to send and receive Autonomi Network Tokens.
And again, it sucks that we cant uphold these from the get goā¦ but we are at risk of not upholding any at all by going for a big bang approach that risks them all.
There are a lot of cool features that I hold dear too, that are only going to work with the native token (like Content Addressable Payments for example) but I have to reign back my excitment on those for a period, and be pragmatic. Itās safer and wiser in this case to progressibly work toward them, than to bet the farm when the signals would indicate it is high risk to do so.
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Just over a month to launch and Iām further away from understanding how this system works and totally sceptical that the project will be working in 5 years time or even if we have a solution fit for release in 5 years time.
Iāve never been involved in anything so confusing. For a network where I envisaged it was simply an upload and download to the ānew internetā, I see changes and confusion.
Surely a worrying time for any external company considering using the newtworkā¦ā¦
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I dont know fundamentals, for my opinion if somebody criticism one way, then is logic question whats him solution or alternative.
I understand this steps like, we want first get volume and credibility like proof to exchanges, and then could be implement native coin. But could be wrong. And its question how u change world by using just bisq exchange etc (+vs other competitors)
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I like the idea of using an external network for payments at the start, the idea of an early failure of the network always worried me.
Little curve ball ideaā¦
MINA Protocol, is a complete rollup network (so not really a blockchain), the proof of who ones what rolls up into a 22kb blob. This means a copy can easily be include on all autonomi nodes, the latest version could even be stored on the network itself.
They have just announced a fungible token standard, there will be DEXs, MINA is listed on coinbase, kraken, binance etc. Plenty of off-ramps. DEXs are scheduled for October.
Might be worth reaching out to MINA, maybe they would be into the idea of a data network attached to their project, and would lend a hand?
They also have a handle on regulation like on-chain KYC etc, while I would rather not be regulated, its unavoidable at this point.
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I will try and respond constructively as I can to what I read as a slightly misinformed take (although the retort might well be that, that lies at my door also).
- David and I work closely together and have since the time I joined, he is the architect of the network, I am not - and I have never claimed, and would never want or be foolish to try and lead the technical developments of a product, that in one form or another, has been in flight for 18 years.
- āPulling the marketingā - we have been open with the challenges of beta, we do stages every other week, there are updates on progress and problems - and no one has tried to hide the fact that there were bugs and issues across the board when the network was scaled through the beta node reward program. The marketing was also for the beta node reward program - incentivised because we were learning from it. That said, at a point where 75-80% of folks are having a similar issues and/or not able to participate, not only are they getting a poor experience but the team isnāt learning anything new/getting any value from running a token incentive. This is why we didnāt put more efforts into marketing - going beyond (via referrals) friendlies would have risked damage without need, reason or benefit.
- The strategy around the launch is a 3 step (involving test > network > native for payments), you can disagree with it of course (and that is absolutely your prerogative), but it is being done to support the stability, performance and scale, that is required of the network for it to exist and live up to its promise(s).
- In order to get there - we can launch the main proposition to drive adoption and interest (beyond a group of individuals), to deliver the capacity that will be required with scale we will need a reward mechanism - being able to realise that reward (monetary value) will matter to a lot of holders and that is something we can do with this approach.
- The native token, as has been said several times will continue to be worked on.
- In regards to the ānew teamā, the guys working on the network at not new, yes we have added 3 developers and a few non-technical folk, but like me, they have joined a long established group, who have their arms and heads well around the development of the network - my job is to ensure that (as was stated when I joined), with the network almost ready, that reality and expectation are brought together as closely as possible. Vagueness and opacity around design/tech principles and concepts, are great when exploring and experimenting but they are hugely detrimental to planning and execution if theyāre not realised or practical. It is my role to find those gaps and try and bridge them.
- Regarding payments specifically - as it became clear to me, that the native token was further out than anticipated (with all requirements factored in), it meanāt that decisions around strategy had to be made, and they were. Having taken all the inputs I have and having the networkās architect and founders full support and agreement, I am confident weāve landed on an approach, that will not only see the network launch, but also put it in a great position to scale and mature into its final form as well.
- You can of course disagree with me and I respect that, but do please note, that in fairness, it is also my choice to disagree with you and to also reject some of the statements you have made incorrectly as fact.
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Another thought, because Iām very fond of private currency:
If data still retains itās privacy, could a currency be coded just as a data in the network, based on chunks and registers? Iām not talking about a currency for storing data in the network, but just a currency that could be used if people find it valuable. Something like āthe data in this chunk represents a value of oneā? The movement of that currency would of course need to be paid by ETH, but could it still work?
I mean, in some ways, you are describing the native token. Itās just data on the Network.
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Thatās on me Mark, I am still going through this one and did not want it to be an issue, I still adamantly donāt. But for sure, many months I left Bux holding the baby and still do quite a bit. I know she came in as CEO, but to be dumped on with no cross over to speak of was IMO almost an impossible task. I can say she has been amazing and as open as possible to as. many folk as she can. The discord stuff is an example.
The erc20 was a left field side I put forward as I have bene getting a more clear head. It was not to make up for deficiencies in the transaction data type, which works well. There is no wallets or eco system there and exchanges are a nightmare.
So I proposed, and the team picked it up, eventually, after initially baulking at it, that we do something brave and use erc20 or similar to get on exchanges, integrate with other projects and use a proven eco system (not just central tech).
So the community can pin the erc20 fallout on me. I think itās very brave and these reactions show that as well I think.
In any case, none of us need to fall out here. Thatās for certain.
I am aware I spent a huge % of my time with the community and then vanished. I am still not 100% back, but I am able to jump in and out. I cannot attend any meetings or stands the team has internally yet, but I zm able to comb slack and here again.
Maybe, getting ill spurred me to forcibly push to launch, but with @Bux I was pushing an open door, she is keen as mustard to get out there. So this is where we are, we are running down the hill at full pelt with whatever we have and we are listening to the engineering teams on where we are and what works etc. Itās a big push and one I feel we must make.
When launched, even with the 4 data types and in their infancy, we will at least be somewhere and from that place we can move in an iterate towards having all the fundamentals in place.
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There is nothing to pin on you! These guys donāt know me, so itās fine I suppose to question my ethics ā¦ yours, absolutely not, which is why no one would. And itās a pleasure to hold this baby - esp when you can ping someone any day or night over a text channel and get the assurance or guidance you need that youāre doing the right thing. #Team 
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Thanks @Bux and @JimCollinson for responding.
Iām afraid you donāt get me either.
Those answers donāt reflect my position, points or experience this year. @Bux you canāt know me in such a short time and with so little participation on the forum and I think that shows here and in earlier interactions.
I could get into specifics but am not going to do that.
I get that this your way but there implications of this change are much greater and theyāre not hard to see, including for the fundamentals.
Jim, picking those two is plain wrong, and Iām not the only one to point that out so far on this thread. In private people share much more shock and despair, just so you know.
When I made my requests I stipulated an honest appraisal for a reason.
(BTW my saying ānew teamā was I guess unclear - I meant new regime, project phase etc).
In short order I will be out of your hair and much more of a lurker, which I suspect is going to seem easier. But this project has lost trust, not just mine but of significant supporters and the people they have brought on board. Thereās a cost to that paid by everyone.
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I am sorry to read that, and acknowledge that while I donāt know you, that weāre likely here in our respective capacities for not entirely different reasons.
Reading your comments and taking them at face value, it is hard to hear that others feel despair, especially as the network is closer than ever to being real and in the hands of many more people, rather than experimental and in the heads and (technical) hands of a few.
We have a lot lined up, and have every intention of ensuring that the network can reach true scale and utility for many, many people and āuse casesā - with self-custody (important for everything from healthcare and finance to farming and entertainment) and individual control and privacy at the heart. I hope after all this time, you will one day be able to enjoy the benefits of building and using it.
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Hey Josh, in regards to this - there was a hard conversation had by me and a few of the guys in early August, about all the requirements in and around the native token (bridging, equivalent contracts etc), the time flag was raised then (with October being the date set almost when I joined based on the then status). For me there were a lot of gaps - maybe not insurmountable. Itās at this point I did what I often do and poked David for thoughts, builds, suggestions on a path. The route of an erc token to start with was a big call, and it needed to be investigated fully as to its implications - the guys needed to respond/react to it also. The board (as Maidsafe is accountable to the same as not yet owned by the foundation) also needed to give sign-off on the new/updated strategy as well. Since then weāve gone back and forth on scope, impact, requirements to share with you. I appreciate there has never been a repro you guys canāt see, but without wanting to speak too soon (changes may still have had to happen), yet needing to start to go down the path, with timeline in mind, we jumped in and on it. Iām sorry for the way that has come across, appreciate it must feel pretty crappy when you have done nothing but try and support to be boxed out like that.
I hope, now weāre back on the same page (not saying every likes the reading), we can catchup with ourselves, reset and involve those who would like to be in all the next steps.
** sorry for the edits - my grammar today, goodness!
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The wording on the loan contract goes like this:
1.4. in return for MaidSafeCoin made available by the MAID Holder under these funding
terms the Company will, subject to successful launch of the Safe Network and release
of SafeCoin to the Companyās shareholders and as soon as practicable thereafter
transfer to a wallet specified by the MAID Holder, such number of SafeCoin as shall
be equal to 150% of the number of MaidSafeCoin received from the MAID Holder under
these funding terms;
The change of plans was not in sight then of course. My interpretation of the text is that in this situation the loan is due when the ERC-20 token in January is launched - not when the native coin is launched.
Or maybe it should be up to the lender to decide which coin he or she wants? Some might prefer to have the native token and wait for it.
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Itās a significant change, but itās only a stepping stone to speed up and smoothen out the launch process.
For years Iāve felt adding interoperability with some blockchain tech could give the network a headstart & ongoing benefits, so Iām pleased to see it happen to a degree, because I want to see it launch & this will make that happen sooner (assuming the ERC20 solution performs well enough of course).
So I agree itās not cynical to consider this a major change, but I think it is cynical to assume that this change means the native token will be sidelined and not developed or prioritised, given how important it is.
I think a lot of people have been disappointed with the beta because itās been nothing like early testnets.
In early tests, community devs were central in making cool apps (chat, messaging, music, token creation & wallets etc), and anyone could put up a website, access on the browser, and play with cool & rapidly iterating apps.
I expect many in the community envisaged beta to be like a better performing & more stable test-net.
But the beta network is and has been invisible in terms of user / community dev involvement. I wonder if this has been a source of disappointment among some of those guys?
I look forward to the next stages of beta, when devs will be able to get stuck in, and users see what data is doing on the networkā¦ and I hope some key community devs donāt jump ship just before it gets really good!
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Thanks @Bux I can appreciate that many of us see only the tip of the iceberg.
There are questions though, like is there any point in finishing the remaining weeks of beta with the current network and native token implementation.
Is there already a version that contains the erc20 token? When do we test it?
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