Discussion of a collaborative commons and data marketplace on SAFE

I agree with you that it’s time to begin a discussion on genetic algorithms. Are you familiar with r3.0? With their supporting international community they are developing a number of blueprints to support transition to a new regenerative economic system in which data and algorithms are key components. The Ex Summary in the r.3.0 Data Blueprint summarised as follows (and in the diagram below) states

“the quality of change …. is based on for intermediation of mathematical models and algorithmic metrics as well as the design of data flow architecture and information systems”

to me fundamentally describes the critical “genetic algorithms” issue we could begin to address in this thread and which the dWeb and dWeb “data” commons path forward will need to address from the outset.

I describe what we are working on here as strategic gene therapy or societal genetic engineering in that we inserting new genes into the existing body/system to improve our bodies/systems genetic makeup. To me genetic thinking/language is critical in a transition/evolution from a static mechanical/industrial way of thinking given to one which recognises that we are all actually part of a living system or “Lifebank”.

So well done in starting this discussion. I think it will become increasingly important and can lead to the ability to connect with key international communities such as R.30 with something tangible…

The proposed dWeb commons model path involves an “interconnected community of citizen, community & industries mutual asset pools with ODE exchange cost minimised (as per your intro offer to Glen/Devo) with system profits shared equitably based the intermediation of mathematical models and algorithmic metrics as well as the design of data flow architecture and information systems” i.e. A True future value Access Well-Being GDP or shared prosperity/ algorithm model

So keen to connect you further on this topic i.e. Genetic Algorithms on SAFE particularly in context of how we could apply what we learn thru the dWeb blog/commons model path starting with some smaller scale client side apps/ideas.

Algorithm’s and AI seem to go hand in hand. These links give some context for our dWeb/commons environment/opportunity

Open AI is a not for profit that has been gifted $1 bl

AI commons is a not for profit community of engineering academics gov, NGO, Foundation which IMO opinion (which counts for very little really :grinning:) needs a Foundational safe.commons model to underpin/focus on

@CommunityLink I’m not sure this is relevant to the topic. By Genetic Algorithms I mean algorithms for design/optimisation in software, so gene therapy for example is a different topic. I’m not sure what your topic would be, so perhaps you can suggest a suitable title to moderators and ask them to move your posts?


I also understand Genetic Algorithms to mean algorithms for design/optimisation in software. I was using “gene therapy” as a term to describe simply the placement of the optimised software algorithm and hopefully the therapeutic outcome it creates.:grinning:

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Ah, ok, glad we’re on the same page but I didn’t see the connection in your writing or the r3.0 link, though I only looked briefly.

The connection between r.3.0 and this Genetic Algorithms on Safe topic is end user context to highlight the importance of this discussion/path for the vision you describe…

From SAFE that’s true decentralisation to the max, security from the ground up, censorship resistance, anonymity, a radically democratising economic model for developers and users, and commerce using a built in massively scalable, anonymous, energy efficient digital cash. There’s more, such as data in perpetuity, but I’m running out of breath!

I have believed for many years we are coming to an evolution convergence point. There are other (non IT) communities as passionate and committed as the safe community who are looking for/need each other. They are about users and commerce and like you they are looking for **a radically democratising algorithmic driven economic model/platform ** which I believe only the safenetwork and an safe algorithmic capability (as part of/which supports the safedrive/git/dweb package?) can ultimately deliver. I have introduced safe and the communitylink collaborative commons model previously and will reengage when we have something tangible as they can support safe distribution as scale.

I agree with your thought that any further discussion re this should be part of a new topic probably with the safe.commons title introduced in my reply to David to intro/progress the safe data marketplace /level playing field/automatic pricing/model discussion. In order to have something tangible the best time is probably after the set up of the DWeb commons blog & Dweb blog experience article. Working on this now. Jaybirds article provides a good article template

I note your comment
“I’m starting to mull ways to use generic algorithms 2 on a decentralised network. Thoughts?
A couple of intriguing threads:
executable genotype of immutable function() (in JSON, RDF?) = automata
parallelism via client with subpopulation (eg web app). Social/viral app?

This post is just to see if anyone else is interested in the area and have ideas or know of relevant work we can gather together.”

I wish I could help more on the tech but I will hopefully connect with you with an idea (client side app) which may help focus your tech threads … otherwise it can be a bit like … how long is a piece of string?:grinning:

Thanks @CommunityLink for explaining. I’m still not seeing the connection here with the intended area of discussion (practical applications of software algorithms based on GAs) and what you’ve linked or posted, so I’m going to ask @moderators to move your posts to a new topic where we can dig more into what you are bringing if you wish. Cheers.


Sounds good. I suggest a Topic/title something along the lines of … Discussion of a collaborative commons and data marketplace on SAFE - (borrowing from David) The (Im)possible network organisation


Interlinking a couple of threads through this safe Collaborative commons/data marketplace (genetic therapy/algorithm) conversation path into an Integrated Summary & Logistical Integration Process flow …

1. CommunityLink Safenetwork Public Data Utility - Setting up a Commons dWeb Blog

As described in my response to David’s true decentralised price network which enables automatic price seeking on a global flat playing field comment, the DWeb commons blog describes a possible safe.commons, CommunityLink data marketplace model as a starting point for further discussion to support this outcome. As we have agreed the dWeb blog article is about my experience in setting up the dweb commons blog site so others can learn from it.

2. What is it? My response to David’s true decentralised price network vision/objective

Introduces Ocean protocol decentralised marketplace-exchange types/benchmarks which we can learn from for a safe data commons/marketplace level playing field/automatic pricing vision.

The objective (onboarding to an autonomous network) is to enable self-organising citizens, Community or industries to access, customise deploy their own “CDC QBOS” Data Council product (ultimately ISO quality approved). incorporating a across the safenetwork. The data council objective is to provide a level playing field/automatic pricing/model for community members to access their own Care Capacity system based on their own Council defined standards to support transition to the Rivkin post capitalism model.

The CDC QBOS system is being designed around an existing ISO Approved Quality management system and templated Data Council governance system which has already been implemented in a specific industry with a national mandate. The framework basically exists supported by a project office to sit behind the dweb/safe.commons to manage documentation and deployment, so business systems not a big step… just add the tech . Next step for me is the try and learn how to set up a dweb site which is pretty scary for a tech neanderthal :grimacing: and a better understanding of a true decentralised price network requirements

**3. Project Commonsense Commons central project office/knowledge repository/Meta index

What we are all doing is completely new so we all need to learn from each other and together as we go forward. Working on the complimentary documentation to commercialisation will enable us to understand each other’s requirements to focus/progress y/our deliverables.

It helps also if we have a common outcome to focus on to align our thinking, narrative and agree a common language/story, documentation, system /IT actions etc. This is where I think the safe://commons design path, which by necessity must incorporate safedrive as a decentralised file system, safegit/plume & dweb components as part of Quality Business Operating system (QBOS) to enable a mutual AGI strategy, could assist. This context could be the best way to define what I need to learn on the tech front and help you identify suitable tasks in the short term! I will need to PM my thoughts here due to confidentialities. Also happy to help with any opportunities you feel are key.

As we move forward we will need a way to share and manage safe://commons documentation. To assist this need I have established a Commons Central Library which will sit directly behind safe://commons(sense) with the following structure (which we can progressively improve)

i. Commons Central Directory - which is where we can place/manage our (commercial & technical) working docs and where they can be deployed as pre-defined product outcomes which are set up as a “Curated set of working docs & links that persist”. NB a “repeatable framework of terms and mechanism” is a key ODI definition of a data trust.
ii. Commons Central Binary Library – where we can put technical documentation associated with establishment and management of the binary library David has spoken of previously. If I understand correctly could this be a place where we provide a “permissioned centralised view/access” to a safegit (decentralised IP) library catalogue to assist overall network learning & ability for any Community to access improvements easily?

In the first instance we could use this to assist us and others who contribute.

4. Discussion of Open Ended Algorithm on Safe - *“Multidimensional Neural networks” Knowledge & technical architecture and smart product matrix outcomes (to define continuous interlinks/value exchange) discussion start point

In this 2nd version of your architecture diagram I have inserted the aligned UBER AI preso “Multidimensional Neural networks” slide and a number of smaller diagrams numbered 1-10 which flesh out existing or add key architecture components/requirements which as you say need to be evolved e.g. indexes to underpin a decentralised search app/ultimate path


See summary of diagrams 1-10 highlighted in the previous slide

5. Wealthcare Capacity Demand Management (WCCDM)

@Nadia Great description of the Maidsafe project methodology!

Your simplified “i.e. why did we over/underestimate” description is very similar to the “human resource allocation optimisation” or “care capacity ” methodology which I believe is key to achieving the path to the "true decentralised price network/global flat playing field” safe vision and in time underpin the design and use of genetic algorithms on safe.

I note the Marketing Update comment re the plan to steer in the direction of focus primarily on DApp developers. We are looking at a safe WCCDM dApp Epic, story & tasks design to leverage off this existing opportunity.

The objective is to create a generic WCCDM dApp template in context of the safe commons/data marketplace/public utility goal, broken down into chunks i.e. 3 project sections, with each section broken into smaller chunk projects or project workstreams and phases. So hopefully we can reach a point where we can simply compare our Epic Stories to implement.:smiley:

6. Project Commonsense WCCDM Co Phase 0 method to bring the ULB/neuroevolutionary thinkers around safe to create our open AI community equivalent

ommonsense Project framework to meet this need requires 3 project sections ….

Project section 1 – Build the Foundations

Project section 2 – Commercial

Project section 3 – Community

each one an Epic story. :smiley:

Some brief thoughts to give a little background to the core issues for each

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@dirvine I’m resharing my response to your recent Safe network is and always was meant to be a probabilistic network comment as the start point for Project Commonssense update and context for a safenetwork opportunity next steps discussion.

“IMO the IEEE’s Measuring what Matters in the Age of Climate Change and Algorithmic promises paper provides the best i. benchmark for safe as an probabilistic autonomous network ii. illustration of the opportunity to leverage safe as a global (autonomous network) standard

I note your comment about “how to create new and exciting stuff. Things like get SOLID back on track, perhaps have a matrix servers discoverable then integrated and so on” but that’s another conversation. As the IEEE paper explains … a new field of ai called probabalistic computing is used specifically to measure statistical aspects of economics for wellbeing, aggregating multiple and different datasets … and introduces the NZ 4 Social Capitals & 12 Wellbeing domain approach.
Interestingly the IEEE’s paper introduces three project recommendations which benchmark and align directly to the 3 project commonssense office project sections previously introduced as a systemic "Proprietal to Open (Dweb) Process Mapping methodology to Dweb transition to the worlds first autonomous safenetwork.

IMO we have an aligned interest with some significant systemic partners for a potential win win win safe testnet opportunity.”

So where to from here? Within the PCS master dashboard menu (pictured) these common PCS/IEEE project sections are established as operational teams with channels for the system partners e.g. Maidsafe Ltd, Maidsafe Foundation, Solid/Inrupt. PCS system (pictured) is designed to bring multiple (identified) entities (each dedicated to OPEN system development) around a shared business collaboration space to demonstrate an approach and MVP which leverages their existing projects, supporting assets and funding. .


The project commonsense collaboration space provides a systemic "Proprietal to Open (Dweb) Process Mapping opportunity/methodology to seamlessly transition to the worlds first autonomous network in partnership with solid packaged as a sense.ai proposal (our open ai equivalent collaboration) incorporating the teams and channel partners in this project commonssense/ULB dweb framework visual.

The proposals objective is the simultaneous sharepoint/dweb Intelligent NODE re/creation for the CODE model interconnecting NODEs for “seamless transition” to a mutual dataplume and genetic opened ended evolutionary algorithmic promise and positive knowledge spiral. This is being packaged thru a Co Phase 0 INCEPTION Event to bring the co creators around a pre agreed CODESWAP genesis DBC for network inception.

The project commonssense steps 1- 10 intro in @Happybeing’s Discussion of Genetic/Open Algorithm’s on safe explained that

“in IMHO to bring the key co-dev stakeholders together around a Open AI equivalent Foundation discussion group and safe commons/OEEA path will require a specific converging path/framework & complimentary opportunity/outcome to assess. This will need a prior discussion to align our Epic stories and address the questions … Which EPIC stories to we share? Where do our EPIC’s & stories intersect & how do they interact? What new shared EPIC’s stories do we need to establish? What adjustments do we have to make to our existing EPIC’s stories/project plan …. to frame the co-development opportunity to easily include other’s “activation functions & parameters” in key contribution areas.”

The above introduces an operational collaboration space which hopefully address the issues raised in this comment.

Update and (interlinking) flow opportunity to follow