To be honest, I’m seeing that your list of demands is growing and growing 
I haven’t got the time to respond to every single point so if it’s ok with you we’ll wait to see what comes out of your proposal that you’re creating right?
Not demands but suggestions and requests. Just throwing out ideas here.
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Regulars is just a small group as well. That’s why we don’t have special posts only in the “lounge” category, there are a few but almost no one uses it. It makes that a big group of members can’t see an item. And we should all be as equal as possible. We have 2 users that have trustlevel “Leader” here on the forum but that’s temporally because we didn’t had enough room for staff-members to fit all the mods/admins. But out forum get’s upgraded in the coming days and then we don’t have any “Leader” on this forum. We don’t like to use that possibility. It can only be rewarded by a Admin I think. Regulars is quite automatic. After several posts etc.
Everybody can PM mods 
. And I have a list of deletes as well without ever doing anything wrong 
. If you take a topic back now and than that shows deletes as well. Even if you did it yourself. Just seeing the Flags would be confusing as well. The only way for a member to keep an eye on moderation is to be all in. So see the PM’s, see the Slack-channel etc. That way someone would have a clear picture.
No no no no no this is all wrong IMHO, we honestly need to have at least some types of checks and balances in place, please stop fighting against this!
Without a system in place like this, where you have to lay out the evidence of why you are banning a regular, then we become China etc where there’s no due process and you can just ban anyone anytime with no ramifications.
That’s not honest, that’s not fair, and that’s not sustainable. We need due process and at least a detailed explanation that people can refute / agree on.
Can you please start seeing your opinion and the truth as two different things
This all isn’t possible because we’re constantly checking eachother. The few times we did ban someone we had at least more than 4 moderators agreeing and you have to make really big trouble to get banned. This is not a country, this is not the government, this is a forum man.
You don’t see it as fair and not sustainable . You don’t even have to agree on certain bans or not, I’m also having difficulties seeing how someone else’s ban is your business, can you explain that to me?
This is good, this is a start, but all I’m asking for is a thread in “Meta” with some supporting evidence each time.
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Can you please start seeing my opinion and false as two different things
I agree with you @whiteoutmashups. The only edit I would suggest is to open this thread in the lounge vs the meta category so that it can be less public. Also, to limit the supporting details to the specific guideline rule(s) violated and how often. Example: Person A violated Guideline section B X amount of times and was given X amounts of warnings. In other words no detailing of PM conversations.
I do of course, I’m not saying you’re lying or saying things that aren’t true You do tell us your opinion as if it is the truth and that was the point I wanted to make.
Because we’re all equal here, we’re all deeply into this project together, and what happens to any one of us affects as all as a whole
the fact that you expect me to not care at all about what happens to another member of this forum which I care so much about is deeply concerning @Melvin
I’m just still in disbelief that @Tonda has done anything deserving of this. I’ll check the PM @smacz mentioned
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You see it as deeply concerning @whiteoutmashups, this again isn’t a fact, it’s not even true that I don’t care, it’s something you come up with just now. I’m not trolling here but it’s difficult to communicate when someone presents their opinion as a fact.
Why would I be a moderator if I don’t care about the members? I’m simply asking why you as another member should be informed about the behavior of others here while you’re not in the staff?
Looking forward to your response after doing that
No time for this
Yeah @Tonda seemed stressed, must be going through a lot. It makes sense in Australia, but at least in the USA, “be careful” is meant as a command, and definitely a warning. I can see how it may have been taken this way. But his backlash was excessive.
He got 3 weeks for this, though? Was there more that he did? That seems very excessive
There were several things. The PM you were invited to was part of it. I’m not pointing out all. Hope you do trust that like 10 mods don’t make a decision like that easily. The ban is 31 days.
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Just wanted to point out that @whiteoutmashups didn’t claim that you don’t care.
He said:
He was asserting that because you were suggesting that a ban on another member wasn’t his business, that you expected him not to care.
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I didn’t say I expected him not to care I said that I’m having difficulties seeing how it is his business why other people got banned.
Oh, I know, but you replied thinking that he had said you didn’t care, which would have been presumptuous and harsh, and offensive to you.
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TBH, the reason I picked at this point is that I’ve sat and watched a lot of these arguments now, and I notice that these small misunderstandings happen quite often.
I know that for the moderators, you are probably in a hurry and so sometimes while skimming miss the finer points, but I feel like these little things matter; they can change your perception of the person you are conversing with, like whether you think they are being reasonable, whether they are exaggerating, whether they are friendly, and whether they are willing to think the worst of you. 1 of these misunderstandings is unlikely to make a lot of difference, but when they accumulate, it is a different story.
And then the reaction to these misunderstandings could potentially result in the other party feeling like they have been judged unfairly. I know in this thread there have been times where some of my, and other’s, points have been taken the wrong way. Sometimes this is because of ambiguity, other times I think people (on both sides) have approached their replies with a somewhat adversarial mindset, defensiveness, whatever.
So I would just make a plea to all involved in these conversations to carefully consider the other person’s words and make sure we understand each other before firing back. (Not saying you were getting hot under the collar, @Melvin, you gave a friendly reply)
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Sometimes I’m in a hurry and I do skim over a thread but when I do I mostly mention this . I can come across a bit angry the last few days towards some of the people here but that is because I am. I don’t like post like these and the distrust they show towards me and the other moderators:
This is only from yesterday, are you kidding me? Do you really think we’re banning for fun here? Just because someone doesn’t agree with us or something? The distrust in us drips from every comment and I’m done with that .
I’m very willing to look to solutions which satisfies everyone but not when people are pressuring us, saying we will end up like being China and stuff like that. I can already see the posts coming up that are questioning the ‘ban list’ once we start with that.
It’ll all have to start with putting more trust in the moderators which still are the ones that give you a clean forum to join every day and every minute, who protect you against people that are coming here to do harm or to scam you etc.
I don’t envy you this and understand that would be hard. Actually I know exactly how you feel, but from a different source and in a different situation.
Hopefully with the discussion to come, we can set up the environment in such a way that people will listen to each other a little more.
Kind of like:
“You can’t really understand another person’s experience until you’ve walked a mile in their shoes.”
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You’re very right. And understand that you are trying to moderate a group that has come together to support open access to all data, no censorship, freedom of speech, etc etc, and to try to push limits and bans and censors on such a group like us is a hard position for you to be in, surely.
I really wish that there were no mods, and that we could all just be equal, etc. But time and time again it seems that day will have to wait for SAFE.
I understand it’s a hard job to be a moderator on any forum, especially one built on the principles of SAFE. I always try to propose solutions, like checks and balances. But they always get shot down.
I guess I’ll give up yet again.
Can’t wait for SAFE.
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