Update 2nd October, 2025

Development Updates
21

It also depends on how people do their cycling.

If one turns off then on again, that will eventually cause problems.

If people do the better method of one node at a time with more than 2 minutes between nodes, then that should not cause issues to the network. The reason for 2 minutes is that it limits it to 3 nodes during that 5 minutes of discovery that each node goes through when starting. The churning takes longer but the majority is during the first 6 minutes.

For people running less than 720 nodes on a machine then this is a day to cycle through their 720 nodes. People running more would have a cycle time of a lot longer. This is the quandary facing large node runners, how to kindly restart their nodes (ie upgrade them) because going faster than 2 minutes between each node restarting is stressing their machine and bandwidth and of course the network to some extent.

The node age is too easy to spoof, and unless the emission machine has a database of all nodes out there it cannot be certain of age and I can guarantee if there is a emissions vampire then they will spoof the age and any other metric used. If I can do they can and I have tested it.

The best metric is the usefulness of the node. IE is it storing and retrieving data properly. Now having a second thought the emissions machine could redo its quote 5 minutes later and see if the responding nodes are still responding and random pick one of the nodes who responded correctly both times.

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22

This is about distributing the emissions, which are assumed to be a small part of the ANT node’s mining in the future. A normal user who is online for 1 hour has the same chance of catching mining from uploaded data as anyone else in both options.

Check out the Impossible Futures!

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23

exactly im pretty okay with emissions being reserved for well behaving nodes that are there to support the network.

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24

Is being online for an hour all thats needed to define “well-behaving nodes”?

At this stage of the game IMHO, nodes should be up for a minimum of 72hrs to start being considered for emissions BONUSES

These BONUSES should only be paid out if the node is proven to be responding correctly every (say) 5 hours.

Emission BONUSES should only be be paid out once every 3 days.

Lets see what that does to the pattern of selling on the exchanges.

Emissions are nothing but a rod for our own backs.

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25

Great update, many thanks to the team and the committed community! :ok_hand: :clap: :clap::clap:

This is certainly positive news, although the changes in remuneration may cause confusion among small ants. @maidsafe, it would be good to explain in more detail how the changes will affect node remuneration, what benefits these changes will bring to the network, who will benefit most from them, and who may need to make changes to their node launch and maintenance strategy.

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26

How does that work? I was under the impression that there was a settlement period of 24 hours before any rewards could be earned, maybe that is only the emissions story?

27

Few points here:

  • This is for emissions only, not data payments. And they will dwarf emissions in time.
  • There is a randomness, and a high frequency to the liveness checks, so it won’t affect things in the way you fear I don’t think.
  • Normal updates or reboots in the run of daily life won’t be a problem.
  • These updates improve both the fairness of emissions and network health by closing loopholes and enhancing how we distribute.

In summary — I think you need not worry!

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28

With respect, you always say that and it isn’t always true: help with development, launch, native token are some examples. We do worry and with good reason.

I don’t have a beef about this issue other than it seeming like another move away from the fundamentals. I get that one day emissions may not be significant but there’s no way to say how long that will be. It could be five or ten years, or maybe in a year. :man_shrugging: In the mean time it’s hard to talk about the original vision.

Same with blockchain. A lot of Android devs are dismayed with Google’s moves on Android development, so they’re considering moving off the platform. When I point them to AutonomiDweb they like it, but when they see blockchain they are “no way”. Until that disappears we will remain a de-facto blockchain project, untouchable to many. I do explain, but so far it has not been a recoverable position.

This was an obvious consequence and further draws the project into the blockchain space as we can see - with the people who don’t have an issue planning to build on those links. It’s going to be very difficult to pull out of this even if bank cards become available. Developers will see what is still under the hood and shun the project.

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29

Imo the Autonomi Network project positioning in the marketplace is drifting into “me2land’ seeking adoption by those in the blockchain world, becuase the project is leading with a SC ERC-20 reward mechanism, the incentive being ‘upkeep’ emissions rewards which de-value the original intent, one time pay with a ‘mesh of node operators’ network generated currency and use of the network with a reward split, like SIA or what ever storage project out there we wish to name.

The storage economic model for Autonomi Network is sure, different than these other storage plays, however the Autonomi network generated upload reward has an outflow problem called an ERC-20 Gateway, which robs the network of liquidity, liquidity which is generated by the network’s algorithm.

That network generation of value is ‘lottery style’ assigned to node operators, and in that sense is really completely disconnected from the investment of value placed/invested into the network by the node operators that actually make the network real.

Granted some node operators may have invested solely with philanthropy in mind, sure nd I respect that.

However to attract a LEGION of app developers to build on the Autonomi network,

there needs to be sufficient economic incentives supported by enough liquidity with a reliable payback for the investment in doing so for both the app developer at layer 3, and the layer 1 node operators.

Today there is no mechanism in the network to support either sufficient liquidity for Layer 3 App developer transaction settlement with a reliable payback to warrant either type of investment, Layer 3 Web App developer and Node Operator.

That means the prospects for both are limited to get a return on their investment in sweat equity and Hard cash to encourage the web developer to create meaningful apps and node operators to run lots of antnodes storing chunks. Why? because the latter node operators are running on life support at the moment driven by random lottery rewards assignment to be followed up with quasi random assigned upload rewards for providing quotes, and the former don’t really see an economic reason to run apps on top of the Autonomi Network that differentiate their offering versus other networks like Solana that do.

Yes ‘dave’ and other upload client variations will assist with generating upload volumes, but if the reward system stays in its current state as a lottery hit and miss assignment of rewards randomness (bingo hall like) , not many are going stay around to play this type of game.

Right now imo, Autonomi and Maidsafe have a unique window of opportunity in history here,

to offer an alternative to BTC blockchain mounted/backed by rabid power consumption and their own lottery bingo parlor game, and

provide an alternative to that money expansionist fractionalized reserve, re-hypothecation game it represents along with that of the US Stablecoins and other projects out there like CBDCs, which are just Fiat buckets, and centralized control games at that…

Autonomi, that is Maidsafe and the Autonomi community could choose to do something different and really change the world. But will we?

The DLO paper offers a glimpse into what a new prosperous world could look like operating on an Autonomi Network with DLO capabilities. DLO is a VISION with full reserve mobile digital money latched to RWA value (node equipment and software enabled operational utility of the configuration). DLO has dynamic liquidity on the Autonomi Network protecting store of value from inflation, and securing buying power for everyone,. DLO has full reserve dynamic staking of mobile digital money to back Layer 3 Web App currencies and their App transaction volumes that keeps the node runners in ‘whitelist’ control of how their digital money is dynamically DLO staked. (none of this arbitrary central control TVL ‘Total Value Locked’ crap).

Any takers or should I simply stand down and take this DLO VISION elsewhere?

Once you see how DLO works and understand DLO’s prosperity improvement impacts on consumer, investor and node operators where DLO crafts that win/win/win, you can’t un-see DLOs obvious consumer, investor and node operator advantages and the HUGE opportunity to change the world DLO+Autonomi Network represents.

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30

I have nodes that report themselves as being online for 1000+ years, is that fine?

I have made a suggestion to @mick.vandijke on discord, not sure he has looked in last 3 days about doing a second request of the quote sometime later and only using nodes that responded both times. But I suggested 5 minutes.

To have 5 hours requires a large database to keep track. 5 minutes is only keeping full quoting history for 1000 quotes. Easy to do even in Bash script.

This

Node age is so easy to spoof, especially with my 1000+ year old nodes :wink: :shushing_face:

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31

What would pushing that to maybe 30 mins cost us?
What would we gain? do we/can we make the network as it stands significantly less gameable by retrying after n minutes

32

200 quotes a minute. You need to keep the chunk quoted for and the nodes that responded correctly.

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33

I don’t feel I have a good understanding despite a reasonable effort to try to figure it out.

I don’t expect many here will put in the effort required to understand it unless you can sell the basic concept to them in a few words.

Maybe I’ll try to get through the paper at some point. It hasn’t ‘clicked’ with me yet, and it doesn’t seem to have clicked with anyone else from what I can see, so I don’t think there’s a high chance of getting any traction with it here unless it can be explained far more simply with clear benefits vs the status quo.

Not meaning to be discouraging, but that’s how I see it based on my efforts to understand it so far, and the response to your posts on the concept.

If I get a breakthrough in understanding it & see brilliance, I will try to help others understand it :slight_smile:

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34

Your mind is still locked into a world with one (1) autonomous network. Such a world cannot exist, every free niche of life is filled, and autonomous networks with native tokens are a huge (HUGE) niche for 1000 future networks. When you talk to android developers, just mention that it is a matter of time before the technology is proven and copied and upgraded without blockchain.

Check out the Impossible Futures!

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35

I deal with what we have rather than what you and others predict may happen. I don’t doubt there will be forks but when or how relevant I’ve no idea.

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36

Yuge Niche.

37

Isn’t emissions crucial to keep the data stored long term? If you mine for uploads, why keep your node up once its full since you already got paid? Why not wipe it, start a new node and get paid all over again?

38

Nodes will earn if they’re holding the data they’re responsible for, and store new files they’re asked to, so as long as they’re doing their job, they’ll get paid for storing data even if there were no emissions.

As the network grows, emissions should become less & less significant vs the tokens earned for storing data, because emissions are a fixed quantity per time-period in a growing network.

Because after wiping everything, the node won’t get a chance to earn until it downloads all the data it becomes responsible for.

This means it’s back to square 1, but with time wasted where it could have earned in the meantime if it hadn’t bothered wiping & starting fresh.

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39

How is GALA music doing I wonder? I see now there are half a dozen blockchain music apps for artists to sell their wares via crypto tokens. I understand the desire to stick it to spotify, but I have never met anyone IRL who purchases music from these services. The idea of signing up to an exchange to download crypto so I can pay to hear a song from an obscure band seems like sadist fiction to me. I am old though, so maybe I am out of touch and mix in the wrong circles. I’d like to be proven wrong because I like the aims. Similarly since the shift to blockchain I really don’t see much difference between autonomi and Sia or Storj I know the technologies are different but the underlying ideas/goals are basically the same. Now the practical side also. Zeronet was a promising blockchain based decentralized network project that was so ahead of its time it became vaporware IMO. This was free, functional ( easy to use) and it didn’t need an exchange to use it. Still failed. Nobody likes blockchain in their software. The Lindy effect on this is now significant. Its native token or bust.

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40

So where does this additional payment come from ? The uploader has ‘paid once to keep forever’ right? What is the value of this subsequent payment compared to emissions? Is there no cap on it or are ANT coins produced indefinitely?

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