The Price of Safecoin & The Economics Behind It

I’m rather certain that MaidSafe, the company and/or the non-profit foundation, will have nothing to do with running such exchanges. These will be built by others on top of the infrastructure of the network.

I don’t think that this will be the case in the long run, actually. Once the network really gets established and safecoin starts being accepted as payment for stuff other than network-dictated stuff (like storage capacity upgrades), people, and even companies will run nodes at a profit. The utility of safecoin should be just too good to not acquire a lot of value above what it costs to run a node. Also remember that almost anything connected can become a node–pc, cell phone, tablet, media server, refrigerator (possibly). Even if enterprise actors get involved, providing super-fast, well connected nodes which get awarded a better safecoin return, there’s no reason to complain. They’ll be improving the network and getting paid for it, but the network design will still allow your Tivo and you desktop to make SOME safecoin, while you’re benefiting from an even bigger, faster, more resilient network due to the enterprise actors involvement. I’d be delighted if Google, Yahoo, Facebook, etc., all got involved by running lots of SAFE nodes. Yeah, they’d start getting a lot of safecoin, but wow, would the network smoke! They’d be unable to prevent competition, so other big actors would get involved to the level of profitability as well. In the meantime, my desktop and Tivo would be earning at least enough make it more beneficial for me to use the network than paying for services with dollars or all of my personal browsing habits, etc.

All this rolls around to addressing your third point: I don’t think another, intermediary unit will be needed. Safecoin is positioned well as a unit of exchange, store of value, etc. It will, of course, take a while for it to start getting a value stabilization. Bitcoin is currently showing signs of such stablization, though I’m pretty sure that that rollercoaster has more ride ahead of it. Safecoin will probably have a similar arc, except that Bitcoin has blazed a lot of trail, and safecoin is actually backed by something of immense value: the private data and communication facility of the world, rather than how much heat and electricity has to be sacrificed in order to create it.

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I concur and think it only right others do so. Otherwise it is centralisation. Well said.

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I also agree that the more apps there are, the less risk there is; the fundamental of MaidSafe is to avoid centralized hugeness servers, and that would include database driven exchanges that host other peoples’ funds and items. Also, a protocol system for exchanges to interact with each other on basic levels, such that if two exchanges transact two identical items such as maidsafe and bitcoins these will be easily integrated;

Using technology such as: http://www.fixtradingcommunity.org/pg/structure/tech-specs
FIX Protocol: http://www.fixtradingcommunity.org/pg/structure/tech-specs/fix-protocol%20

This has been hugely successful in ‘modern’ finance and easily the only thing in ‘modern’ finance that deserves utility.

To add: even

Although there could be private management, I feel like there shouldn’t even be any private management. Exchange capacity should be as easy as making a personal decision moving your hand and giving to another directly from one’s hand. Versus using an intermediary with potential infinity intermediaries. (driving up costs, and ever increasing risk to the users)

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Dirvine, fergish and dallyshalla thanks for your comments and guidance.

Exchanges
I share your objections to exchanges however I do believe each person and each corporation is sovereign, and thus has an inalienable right to trade in lawful commodities, goods and services, and to communicate free of government intervention.

Attainment of rapid critical mass
In order to gain essential rapid critical mass with minimal risk I believe that it is essential for interdependent facilities for commerce, currency and communication be established upon the MaidSafe network. The commerce function should provide the means to buy and sell all manner of commodities, goods and services offered by account-holding participants. I seem to remember that there are three sections to the MaidSafe p2p facility i) personal, ii) shared and iii) public. Obviously anyone wishing to sell something will list it or ensure it is accessible in sections ii) and/or iii). As to the best searching/spidering/caching technique I’ll leave that for the techo’s to determine.

A stable global elastic non-political currency
My view is that we need to establish an incorruptible, non-political, global, elastic, common currency that performs all the necessary functions of money, i. e. a medium of exchange, a store of value and a unit of account that can also act as a reserve currency without the modern-day version of Triffin dilemma for trade in all lawful commodities, goods and services for everyone irrespective as to their nationality, religion, race or political outlook and whether or not they possess money. A mobile phone with Wi-Fi should be sufficient qualification. The currency unit should be a ‘negotiable trade credit’ (NTC) or ‘SafeCoin’ if you like. To establish a starting point for its indicative value it should be algorithmically paired with an existing fiat currency, say the US dollar and 99.999% allocated gold bullion (gold); thereafter its value should float as established by the actual daily trades in ‘real’ commodities, goods and services. Note! Currency valuation for each trade is a subjective decision that is guided by a myriad of issues in the minds of each individual buyer and seller and not that set as a guide. All currency belongs to the community and adjusts dynamically.

Money as an arithmetical accounting system
Now let’s remove the bank-created mystique surrounding money and think of it as an arithmetical accounting system of debits and credits. The process starts with buyers (consumers) who are the creators of currency when they conclude a purchase with sellers. The buyers’ account is debited and the sellers’ account is credited. In accordance with the rules for participation buyers need to bring their current accounts back to zero within a pre-determined time by selling into the market an equal value of wares; sellers need to do likewise by buying from the market an equal value of wares, or there-a-bouts. The commodities, goods and services traded in this fashion can include not only computing storage, bandwidth, and usage but all manner of such items used for consumption, food, fuel, industrial feed-stock and stock in trade etc. These are all items that would be recorded in the ‘current account’ ledger. Effectively the whole community is underwriting the good health of the currency and as every participant enjoys an interest-free credit for the predetermined period equivalent to their rate of stock turn, it is not unreasonable to expect all buyer and seller participants to prove their identities at inception and to authenticate each transaction. A rigorous KYC protocol would keep the regulators at bay.

Maintaining a vibrant elastic current account
Current account balances that have surplus balances and those who are delinquent in clearing their balances within their respective pre-determined times are recorded in two ways: one for current account surplus as retained liquidity for reserves and contingencies and the other is for current account deficits which require restructuring or management which is provided as a paid service by those within the community.

A stable currency holding its value over the long term
Investments denominated in NTC or SafeCoin and/or in gold for self-managed or industry superannuation, privately owned infrastructure, buildings plant machinery and equipment, purchase of capital items of higher value can be managed as a crowd sale/purchase from the market place would all be recorded in the capital account of the ledger.

A common unit of account
Now for the first time in history it will be possible for a common global standard to be created in accounting and for evaluating the true worth of a unit of account.
How the elastic currency comes into existence and is redeemed
I propose that there are only two ways in which the NTC can be created and one by which it is capable of redemption. i) buy buying and selling commodities goods and services within the community; ii) by issue of NTCs by TelelinkGlobal in exchange for gold which is held in trust for the community. NTCs issued by i) and ii) rank pari passu. This process is facilitated smoothly by existing community members with surplus fiat currency purchasing gold from a licensed mint/gold dealer community member and then assigning ownership of the gold to TelelinkGlobal upon issue of the NTC equivalent value. Note! It is the members of the community who collectively ‘back the currency’, not the gold held in trust for the community members. The gold is a reserve and assists to stabilise the currency value.

Exchangeability within the community
Community members can exchange fiat and the new currency (NTC, SafeCoin and other alt coin) between themselves provided all transactions are recorded in the ledger.

Real time settlement for fiat transactions
Community members can use the TelelinkGlobal facility to accept fiat in payment for commodities, goods and services and upon settlement TelelinkGlobal settles in real time between the buyer’s and seller’s banks, thus avoiding regulatory requirements.

By-passing the corrupters of the international financial system
Banks, Central Banks, Scheme cards Visa/MasterCard etc are all superseded. The practice of market making, and trading in derivatives, options, swaps and all that phoney stuff associated with gambling, wagering and corrupting values of currencies, financial instruments, commodities and services are not permitted. However I do believe each person and each corporation is sovereign, and thus has an inalienable right to trade commodities, goods and services and to communicate free of government intervention.

Facilitating real-time settlement in fiat
Community members can use the TelelinkGlobal facility to accept fiat in payment for commodities, goods and services and upon settlement TelelinkGlobal settles in real time between the buyer’s and seller’s banks, thus avoiding regulatory requirements.

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I have an idea for something stronger than KYC - that would be KYM - Know Your Merchant. I will elaborate further some time, right here at this post.

Know Your Merchant - When a person sets out to make a purchase, in our modern society we have several avenues to do this, they are as such ebay, amazon, alibaba, to name a few. They come lock stock with a picture, a user, and a price. The location of the merchant is usually known. When someone posts a product they expect a sale by someone, and anyone. When a customer makes a purchase they are now at the mercy of the merchant and their policies. Along with that merchants’ policy which “could change at any moment”. Think about Bernard Madoff, hundreds of people surrendered to him their own money based on a crowd effect. This effect would not exist if the customers knew precisely what the hell that guy even did. Though the society is the other way around where Madoff’s job was to simply ensure that his customers were accredited or qualified. And the government takes care of the rest. Afterwards everyone was dumbfounded and pissed off. This is not how society is meant to run. If you want to invest in someone or something or want to buy something a customer should make a thoroughly conscious decision to conduct that transaction and have no need for endless recourse. Lawsuits are not meant to interfere with peoples’ lives for years or tens of years. A friend handed over the whole farm 100 mill usd to merrill lynch - and so. Now flies in every three months to follow up on the lawsuit. It’s been 4 years now, if he didn’t fall for a few smooth talkers and some lofty guarantees that money will magically get created he’s out of pocket the whole inheritance. This being said, if such friend knew what the hell exactly they were doing then his problem would not be.

Standards of quality should be considered always, and if you get delivered quality products from a merchant one would naturally always approach that merchant.

A SafeCoin is essentially denominated by the resources of the network, and because the resources of the network are such valuable utilities there is essentially no need for fiat transmission, the idea of have programmable smart contracts is simple and easy to emulate in the SAFE Network with a simple github like reveal of the source code to a contract. Just for example.

If people were to do their own homework they would live more fulfilling lives, and what they choose to do will be real to themselves.

This is why I am proposing a system and not only am I talking about it, I am also walking it out. This system will empower people to evade the seduction of illusions, and it will endorse the honestly of merchants, and organizations to the maximum extent.
Versus the status quo, of “let’s screw anyone and everyone until we get noticed, and then hopefully we don’t get punished > than what we ‘stole’”

I imagine that should it be possible to purchase computational resources through the SAFE Network or to mobilize computational resources through the SAFE Network, many computation problems could be solved instantaneously, and then offlined as they are completed without the need to construct “the latest soon to be non state of the art supercomputer” to accomplish goals related to research, optimization, analysis. etc.

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I’m puzzled about ‘know your merchant’ (KYM) versus ‘know your customer’ (KYC). There can be no difference between a merchant and a customer for we are all at different times both merchant and customer. Every employee, odd job man and aeronautical manufacturer and everyone in between are at one time both merchants (sellers) and customers (buyers). Therefore it seems to me that the rule should apply to all participants within the facility.

Ludwig von Mises in Human Action – a Treatise on Economics noted that:
“THE market economy is the social system of the division of labour under private ownership of the means of production. Everybody acts on his own behalf; but everybody’s actions aim at the satisfaction of other people’s needs as well as at the satisfaction of his own. Everybody in acting serves his fellow citizens. Everybody, on the other hand, is served by his fellow citizens. Everybody is both a means and an end in himself, an ultimate end for himself and a means to other people in their endeavours to attain their own ends”…

The government like to treat them very differently though, unfortunately.

Please consider the following statement:

“Money is not an invention of the state. It is not the product of a legislative act. Even the sanction of political authority is not necessary for its existence.” - Carl Menger p 261/2 Principles of Economics | Mises Institute

I like most of what you lay out here, but I think that the idea of tying to any fiat currency or even other commodity would be a mistake. It’s something that safecoin couldn’t do in any case, at least not in it’s nature. Safecoin already represents the most valuable of commodities: the data and interconnection and interaction of all people (potentially), in a secure, private-by-default manner = the key components of freedom for people. Can’t get much better than that as far as a valuable commodity to be linked to.

With that as a basic fact of the netowrk and currency, the rest pretty much follows.

When a state creates a currency and then forces everyone to accept settlement in it (especially taxes owed) then it may as well be an invention of the state.

I agree that a state isn’t needed to create money though.

Know Your Merchant - When a person sets out to make a purchase, in our modern society we have several avenues to do this, they are as such ebay, amazon, alibaba, to name a few. They come lock stock with a picture, a user, and a price. The location of the merchant is usually known. When someone posts a product they expect a sale by someone, and anyone. When a customer makes a purchase they are now at the mercy of the merchant and their policies. Along with that merchants’ policy which “could change at any moment”. Think about Bernard Madoff, hundreds of people surrendered to him their own money based on a crowd effect. This effect would not exist if the customers knew precisely what the hell that guy even did. Though the society is the other way around where Madoff’s job was to simply ensure that his customers were accredited or qualified. And the government takes care of the rest. Afterwards everyone was dumbfounded and pissed off. This is not how society is meant to run. If you want to invest in someone or something or want to buy something a customer should make a thoroughly conscious decision to conduct that transaction and have no need for endless recourse. Lawsuits are not meant to interfere with peoples’ lives for years or tens of years. A friend handed over the whole farm 100 mill usd to merrill lynch - and so. Now flies in every three months to follow up on the lawsuit. It’s been 4 years now, if he didn’t fall for a few smooth talkers and some lofty guarantees that money will magically get created he’s out of pocket the whole inheritance. This being said, if such friend knew what the hell exactly they were doing then his problem would not be.

Standards of quality should be considered always, and if you get delivered quality products from a merchant one would naturally always approach that merchant.

A SafeCoin is essentially denominated by the resources of the network, and because the resources of the network are such valuable utilities there is essentially no need for fiat transmission, the idea of have programmable smart contracts is simple and easy to emulate in the SAFE Network with a simple github like reveal of the source code to a contract. Just for example.

If people were to do their own homework they would live more fulfilling lives, and what they choose to do will be real to themselves.

This is why I am proposing a system and not only am I talking about it, I am also walking it out. This system will empower people to evade the seduction of illusions, and it will endorse the honestly of merchants, and organizations to the maximum extent.
Versus the status quo, of “let’s screw anyone and everyone until we get noticed, and then hopefully we don’t get punished > than what we ‘stole’”

I imagine that should it be possible to purchase computational resources through the SAFE Network or to mobilize computational resources through the SAFE Network, many computation problems could be solved instantaneously, and then offlined as they are completed without the need to construct “the latest soon to be non state of the art supercomputer” to accomplish goals related to research, optimization, analysis. etc.

Money is a proof system that prevents individuals from maliciously extracting from the society excesses. That is why there are so few rich, and so many less rich. That is why objects are ‘priced’ at what people can afford to pay, and at the maximum versus what objects reasonably cost. That is why if you ear 50,000 usd per year, you will expend an identical proportion of your funds on necessities as everyone else… no one can buy out all the tee shirts in the store, or all the eggs in the grocers for example.

It is basically a material goods DDoS prevention system. With latest anti-money laws… and the impossibility to get even 2,000 out of your own bank accounts without a 45 minute delay is attributed to the sanction of governments DDoSing possible terrorism threats. No money, no stuff, no stuff, no terror… simple.

This also leads to: No money, no stuff, no stuff, no innovation… shit.

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I realized that this thread shares a goal with

Is it possible to merge these two each one asks the question which probably leads to the same conclusions.

The other thread is a FAQ so best to keep that.

I’ll close it and direct people here who want to continue the discussion.

I’m not sure if that will stop people editing the FAQ so let’s see! :slight_smile:

I had prepared this response on the related FAQ thread, but it closed before posting, so I’m putting it over here.

I think we’ll find that safecoin has some different dynamics than you’re taking into account. The concerns you voice largely center around State power, and those who use it to exert broad control over social and political groups.

The beauty of the cryptocurrency concept in general is that it can be a broad-based, voluntary means of exchanging value that has the potential to make the control mechanisms of the “money masters” irrelevant, because it lacks central control or authority.

The problem with Bitcoin and other crypto in general is that it has a real distribution barrier. Bitcoin mining was cool in the earlier days but it’s not a means of getting a lot of bitcoin out in the hands of people at large. Other altcoins have tried to adjust for this but haven’t gotten there in a really meaningful way.

This leaves a huge chokepoint: the necessity to exchange heavily controlled fiat currency for the crypto in order to make it available broadly. This exposes them very much to currency manipulation.

Enter safecoin. People all over the world already use the devices necessary to run the software necessary to access the SAFE network. Running that software has a value to those people quite aside from earning safecoin: it secures their data and communications, privacy and anonyimity, and much more. I’d venture to say that there are enough privacy/security/anonymity concerned people around the world to run a secure implementation of the SAFE network all by themselves, just because they want the features.

Add much, much broader adoption due to convenience, the fact that it’s no strain on people’s already-in-use resources, AND the ability to earn a currency which is essentially digital cash (even if pennies, at first) and we have something that looks very different than anything in existence so far.

Exchanges will come into existence, but they won’t dominate or very much manipulate the value of safecoin, I think. Safecoin will have a scarcity which will increase with time, but won’t start so scarce that you have to jump through hoops to get some and start using it. It will be generated while doing what you’d be doing anyway–i.e., communicating, saving you data securely, etc.

Safecoin will not replace Bitcoin or fiat quickly and dramatically, if ever. It will first permeate, then find relative value, then increase in value.

These are some of the reasons I’m not worried about manipulation of safecoin value. It’s rather resistant, out of the box, and will sneak up on everyone in its effect. So I perceive, anyway.

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Great post @fergish Some great points I hadn’t thought of, must add them to my list of Safecoin differentiators… better start that list :wink:

EDIT: done!

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Thanks everyone for your input to my earlier posts. Firstly I want to make perfectly clear that I’m not in favour of independently run exchanges, they’re the means by which enemies will attack the MaidSafe facility and SafeCoin. I’d like to think that somehow Safecoin transactions outside the MaidSafe community were invalid/null and void. And if that was the case or is intended to be the case, then is it correct to assume that the price of all Safecoin on issue at any given time can only consist of the sum of the cost of computer resources allocated to the network plus a premium for all the beneficial attributes?

If so is it correct to assume that the sum of the computer resources allocated to the network will be a pretty stable cost and should only change when the size of the network changes?

Is it correct to presume that the premium for all the beneficial attributes is the sum of all the community members’ subjective assessments of their value?

Now is it correct to assume that if one hasn’t acquired Safecoin via the crowd sale the only Safecoin a participant can possess to buy food shelter, fuel, clothing, education, health-care and so on ad infinitum is what one has left after having paid for use of the computing resources of the network?

It seems to me that if the abovementioned assumption is correct then the utility of Safecoin may be unnecessarily constricted. I’d appreciate receipt of explanations and views as to how that constriction can be removed so that the volume and/or value of Safecoin could become the global currency of choice for everyone.

In my plan for absorbing fiat currency there is no suggestion of an “idea of tying to any fiat currency…” What I said in describing how the elastic currency comes into existence and is redeemed is that there are only two ways in which the negotiable trade credit (NTC) can be created and one by which it is capable of redemption. i) buy buying and selling commodities goods and services within the community; ii) by issue of NTCs by TelelinkGlobal in exchange for gold which is held in trust for the community. NTCs issued by i) and ii) above rank pari passu. This process is facilitated smoothly by existing community members with surplus fiat currency purchasing gold from a licensed mint/gold dealer community member and then assigning ownership of the gold to TelelinkGlobal upon issue of the NTC equivalent value. Note! It is the members of the community who collectively ‘back the currency’, not the gold held in trust for the community members. The gold is a reserve and assists to stabilise the currency value".

The only gold that is interesting anymore, is the kind that is used inside the CPU pins; or the RAM; or where ever else you could add some added conductivity :wink:

You’ve got it backwards: an exchange run by MaidSafe would be about the BEST way to attack both the company and safecoin.

Most of what you’re saying reflects a very hierarchical perspective of the world. I’d recommend further digging as to the actually philosophy behind the SAFE network, as well as working to understand how the whole thing works, at least from a broad conceptual level if you’re not too technical – like me.

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All this gold hype(Peter Schiff, Mike Maloney) is ridiculous. I don’t want to support miners digging up gold to store in someone’s vault. For one its destructive to the environment, its difficult to transport and its mainly used for storing wealth. Due to its colourful history, people can’t seem to move on. The value of gold will soon be measured by its utility and not by its ability to off-set inflation; that is what crypto-currencies are for.

Money is only used for bookkeeping.

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