Would be cool to have some “wait indicator” as you say, and also I would suggest some education in the meantime. Is that possible @happybeing ? While folk waits for the data to be loaded, there could be a carousel switching some clever information for the user, for example:
“dweb is using Autonomi - autonomous decentralized data layer”
“Autonomi is your permanent data storage where you pay once, store forever”
etc… whatever you think could enlighten a waiting user. We need to educate new people all over the place, there is so much a person must grasp in order to understand Autonomi.
The old ”non app” dweb had one good thing, a cli window running in the background. There you could at least see some lines of text moving, that way you had a clue if its fully dead or there is some progress/activity.
There’s no need to wait before clicking Browse as the action doesn’t start until then. It would be better if the browser then displayed something other than an error while it loads the website obviously, but I don’t know how to do that yet and don’t have time to investigate unfortunately.
Another improvement would indeed be to show activity in the main app window. That’s feasible, but I don’t have time to work on that either.
I really appreciate the feedback though. Maybe I’ll find time to work on this, I agree it would be a big improvement.
If anyone with skills fancies working on these or other improvements by all means get in touch and I will help in the background.
I’m pleased to have got to the point where the whole web publishing and browsing thing works, and the latter is very easy.
It puzzles and saddens me to see all these apps being built on the old web when the same thing can be built just as easily, easier in some respects using the same skills and same business logic to run locally in the browser, and deliver privacy and security we want for ourselves and everyone.
What’s being built right now are like walls to secure privacy were one section is made of paper painted to look solid, but which offers no more privacy than anyone hosting a regular app. All to save getting someone to do a single download that opens the door to endless secure apps and saves having to implement and manage multiple wallets, IDs etc
You don’t need to explain the differences, obviously I understand that.
But we are so near to a step change, so easy to get there.
I find it very discouraging and am wondering what the point has been of all the work I’ve done to get here.
What’s the big deal here?
This is from my reply to @whiteout2 on his topic just now:
There are many advantages to a local Dweb server over a hosted app, for both users and developers, and ultimately - like the web browser - the AutonomiDweb App could be part of the OS itself.
A few advantages for users:
one download for access to all Dweb websites and apps loaded directly from Autonomi
access to every version of every website and web app they ever use so no risk of losing access to data through server overload, DDoS, expirey or takeover of domains, developer disappearing etc
a single wallet and ID for everything, and the ability to have multiple IDs separate from wallet addresses
privacy and security max - everything is end-to-end encrypted - no leakage, hacked servers, guaranteed access to their data forever and no risk of breaches, monitoring or leaking of data on the server
no way to identify you by monitoring IP access to the server, tracking visits to the domain (which is routine in many countries now, including UK)
For developers there are also advantages:
use existing web app skills, tooling and frameworks including hot reloading
standard REST API for access to Autonomi APIs
test on a local network before publishing to Autonomi
Dweb handles the wallet (though this will need enhancing, and soon will wantPaymaster support, but I don’t have time to do these. It would be best if this moved from a one person project anyway, so I would welcome contributions and help)
Those are off the top of my head. I may make time to write a blog post but things are going to get full on for me real soon and so I’m cutting down my ambitions to small simple things for the time being. Maybe a blog will be a good use of time
You can read my blog on Autonomi, download the AutonomiDweb App and enter ‘toast’ and click Open. Or you can read it at https://toast.happybeing.com. That is built using Publii which is very like WordPress but runs as a local desktop app and creates a static website you can upload to Autonomi as-is.
hopefully I don’t get crucified too hard for my very first version, of the very first app attempt after being back from a few years. Like I tried to say a good handful of times, I’m still learning best practices, how things are done, etc, and am in no way finished with SAFE-FS.
The only core issue I see that could be up for discussion is what I asked in the SAFE-FS thread:
is the only way to make a true decentralized (but full-featured) app (downloads AND uploads), is to make an app that users have to download / install? for the ANT CLI etc
Or is there another way? Everything could be a single html file? or are we not at that stage yet
I would if I could / knew how. But it’s been a while and I’m still getting back up to speed.
In happier news, I have been looking at how the decentralized video streamer works and almost have a first early version of that type of tech working in SAFE-FS, that’s fully in browser and plays the music or videos straight from the Autonomi network by streaming / downloading chunks quickly based on what part of the video you click on etc. No backend needed for the streaming part. So I’m learning, and it’s only day 2
Please don’t think my comments are aimed particularly at you. My reaction is to a growing procession of such apps and little evidence of awareness in the community or impact among developers who I would expect are already up to speed.
The winner of the recent app competition was Friends a Dweb by @riddim, which I thought might help folk “get it”, not just developers.
I don’t mean to aim it a anyone personally, including them. But if I criticise the approach it’s hard for people not to take it as personal. That’s a consequence of human sensitivity which can get in the way.
To answer your technical questions, we’re not talking about a single HTML file to build Dweb app. The examples and Atlas are single file apps (for simplicity) but there are no such restrictions when building for dweb.
Personally I like using Svelte. Take a look at the repo for Friends which @riddim built using Svelte, for a really cool example. Or try building a website or blog using Publii. It just works.
These are standard, static websites and dynamic web apps. The difference is that as there is no server, there is no server side code, just the REST API.
Can you call out which apps are in this procession, so we can talk about them specifically?
Certainly, everything built on top of AntTP can run just as happily - more happily in many cases - locally.
Whether folks want to run AntTP locally (to preserve privacy) or use a gateway (for easy of use) is very much up to the user. It’s all just HTTP to a host local or elsewhere.
Personally, I don’t think it is fair to judge folks for building whatever they want with Autonomi. It’s an open, distributed platform, to be used however people please.
Ofc, folks should underline what are best/better/bad practices with privacy, but as with many things in this world, there are often trade offs.
I don’t judge people and to avoid that impression I have not discussed particular apps but the practices of using servers to host things.
I don’t see this happening and don’t think it’s a realistic thing to expect from the people putting things up on servers without a strategy based on helping people protect their privacy. What we see is pretty meaningless claims about this being good because the data comes from Autonomi. How exactly is this good and what are the downsides? Is this a PoC, a demo leading people somewhere better? I don’t see it happening.
There’s a problem here, and personally I think anything using server hosting is incompatible with the goals of Autonomi. That does not mean there aren’t use casees - its just that this is not a way to showcase Autonomi because it is misleading to say that, and dangerous to not have a route to whatever is being delivered that is compatible with those goals.
While it is true to say people can build what they like, the problem is that IMO you should not, cannot really, separate privacy from the other key aims of Autonomi and to do so is confusing and harmful.
If one part from my list falls, it all falls. Server hosted apps is an extreme case for the reasons I listed, and so undermines the whole project, the brand and everything else that actually delivers the set of goals Autonomi has been designed to achieve.
Why is nobody building on Dweb is a more pertinent question for me? I don’t know the answer, but it is a key problem. It isn’t harder than hosting on a web server. Its a choice.
I hear the argument that this is about adoption, but that’s a dangerous path. If someone first creates a solid solution, and also hosts a version on the web to show people what is also possible on Autonomi, and that points people to the real benefits: good. That’s exactly why I host my Publii blog on both the web and Autonomi, and this is made clear to anyone visiting.
By doing this I give an easy route for people to see what Autonomi can do and shows them the way to then give it a try. It also show webmasters and developers how easy it will be to migrate without abandoning their existing visitors.
If people are going to just share links to data being loaded from Autonomi via a web server with no context, I think that is harmful and misleading. So by all means build what you like, but if it doesn’t provide an easy route for people to discover and adopt the real deal, I can’t support it. This is what is missing at the moment because hardly anyone is building the real deal, and I don’t see much in the way of path to that through what they are putting out there.
All this can be remedied but first it requires folk to take these issues seriously, and I don’t see that either. I’ve started to speak up more about it because my pointing out the benefits of a proper solution has had no effect. The only alternative is to point out the problems of using servers - which I was pretty surprised to find is necessary here - but then people take it personally. Some maybe just don’t realise or believe that sharing these servers and links makes people vulnerable rather than protects them, and can easily backfire etc.
I don’t want to critique each and every solution. The problem I’m highlighting is general and any developer and most here can probably see how it applies to each individual project, or not.
I think that it’s very good that you keep talking about the downsides of having a server between end user and the network. And it is even better that you develop the tools for straight path.
Personally my stance on apps/services with middleman are these:
I’d never use them to upload or view anything sensitive, no matter who runs them.
I don’t feel that I am using Autonomi when I use them. If there’s a possibility that the data is as an one unchunked piece on someone else’s computer it’s not the Autonomi.
I nevertheless use them sometimes, because:
I only have one Linux machine that I have dedicated to all things experimental. My ordinary work laptop is windows PC, and I just don’t want to take any risks of messing something with that. (I think that quite soon there are not this kind of risks anymore.)
I sometimes want to see a meme uploaded by @Dimitar for laughs.
In general I think that, when talking about UX, the privacy and security should be included in the UX - even though they are invisible to end user, as is the lack of them. UX is not just about the ease of use, it is also about protecting the end user from various threats.
Because I havent got around to it yet - too busy with other stuff.
These Discord summaries I just did for @dirvine@Bux and @JimCollinson are crying out to be on a website that will allow coice of username ( why should it just be those three?) timescale etc.
Maybe I can do that and play with svelte/tauri to acheive that?
Sure, the question is more why are people choosing to build insecure apps that can lose access to uploaded data - because they rely on servers, DNS, a third party etc - instead of delivering the benefits of the Autonomi network, using Dweb for example.
Like you, I don’t have time to do this myself but some do.
We need a table for the Apps with columns for each aspect. Like runs fully with local http server, only runs with web based http server, can run with web based http server. Thus no criticisms only facts/information
Some apps will be able to run in multiple modes, so I think it is also about how they are deployed. For example Friends is built on Dweb which is only designed to run locally, whereas IMIM can be run with local or server based AntTP. So it is not so much the app, but how it is being accessed which matters.
So I think we need more than just how it runs so that people can easily see what this means for privacy, data access, breach, service reliability, loss of access etc.
I can’t and probably shouldn’t be the person to do this, but I think a tick/cross or rating for each kind of vulnerability such as those described in this reply.
PS for anyone I have not answered recently, by all means remind me. I need to stay away from the forum to get other things done but will check back and pick up stuff which you tag me in as important enough to you, for you to ask for my time. Please assume anything asked before this post won’t be answered without another nudge - thanks
AutonomiDweb App is a simple GUI that makes it easy to browse the web directly on Autonomi using your regular browser. As well as websites you can use web apps such as Friends chat, which keep you and your data safe and accessible forever. For more including a screenshot, see the OP.
In this update:
updated to Autonomi v0.6.4 (performance improvements)
Please help: If someone would be kind enough to share this update on Discord and social platforms that would be great (I have Mastodon covered but that’s all).
Get AutonomiDweb
To access Autonomi dweb sites in a standard browser:
Download the AutonomiDweb App for Windows, Mac or Linux from here
Run the app (eg double-click in your file manager)
Click the “Browse” button which will open your browser, and wait for the website to load (ignore the browser error message)
Check the “Auto-start” checkbox if you want the app start whenever you reboot, so after that you will always have the Autonomi dweb available.
The is no longer a need to use the command line unless you want the extra features it provides such as publishing dweb websites and apps.
Notes:
if your wallet was created using ant CLI (or imported into it) dweb-app will pick that up automatically. If it is password protected, you must start dweb-app from the command line in order to enter your password and unlock the wallet
Linux: you can either download and run the AppImage, or you can download the debian package and install it manually
MacOS and Linux: if you have SECRET_KEY set in your .bashrc it won’t be seen when opening dweb-app in the file manager. But if you set it in your .profile it should be picked up
For more on browsing websites on Autonomi and other dweb features, see the OP
