Yes, that sounds like a better way to do it, better than dates. I think the roadmap is a good first step in that direction
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I agree 100% with you if it were a typical project. Typical projects are ones where they can plan out the work like constructing an airport or building. But you would sink very quickly on a R & D project. Iāve been involved in well managed R&D projects, have done project management myself (& done the courses too) and you seem to have a basic view of project management for typical projects. Gnat charts are very useful for both set timeframes and not set ones.
In fact you can fully manage R&D projects and handle the lack of set time frames in a road map.
Hint: R&D projects are managed differently to a construction project and the manager has to be experienced so that the development team are not building a rolls royce version where a scooter does what is needed. They have to manage the research team so they remain focused on the research at hand. Times for these projects are usually not set in dates and can change day by day. This is why it is impossible to put any dates on a roadmap unless you set massive dates in the future.
MAIDSAFE followed your advise in years past and it only brought grief because it was the wrong approach to managing the project. And now you want them to go back to that???
EDIT: here is what happened a few decades ago to microsoft The Joel Test: 12 Steps to Better Code ā Joel on Software
[quote]The very first version of Microsoft Word for Windows was considered a ādeath marchā project. It took forever. It kept slipping. The whole team was working ridiculous hours, the project was delayed again, and again, and again, and the stress was incredible. When the dang thing finally shipped, years late, Microsoft sent the whole team off to Cancun for a vacation, then sat down for some serious soul-searching.
What they realized was that the project managers had been so insistent on keeping to the āscheduleā that programmers simply rushed through the coding process, writing extremely bad code, [/quote]
By setting dates they actually DELAYED the project and caused bad code. I remember Word in the early day and I can tell you it was very very badly written. Why anyone would have use it is beyond me.
That is an example of trying to use traditional project management on a development project that had just a touch of research. SAFE network has a lot of research.
BTW this is not apologising for MAIDSAFE but rather using my experience over 4 decades of computing
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If you have several decades of experience, you should know that roadmaps are not necessarily about setting dates, they are about documenting the process.
I donĀ“t get the reference to research, seriously. I have been working in research for years: 1. literally EVERYONE uses roadmaps, otherwise there wouldnĀ“t be any way to communicate with supervisors, financiers and administration and 2. if we were close (i.e. ~24 months) to a stable release, which is a very common rhetoric here on the forum, you cannot refer to the process as āresearchā. Also I believe that you underestimate the process of constructing airports & buildings. It isnĀ“t as straightforward as people believe and yes, people still use roadmaps.
I personally canĀ“t see how you are not apologising the status quo. The example of Microsoft Word you use is rather the consequence of not having a proper roadmap and reminds me a lot of how it has been handled here: instead of saying āwe need at least two years to develop a stable versionā the process has been document in weekly updates and repeated hints that something will happen in the next few months. THIS combined with the expectations here on the forum is what drives pressure. Just have a look at this thread from 2014:
What I saw was that whenever a roadmap discussion came up the developers referred to the stress they are in and putting on themselves. ThatĀ“s never a good sign, because it will lead to premature decisions. Quite the opposite, the discussion of a roadmap, handled properly, shouldnĀ“t put pressure on the developers but provide them with the space they need to finalize the project. Maybe the whole team should take one month in a retreat without looking onto the code, Sometimes that is better than pushing hard every single day (#burnout).
And if itĀ“s seriously a research project the roadmap should include several years before we start talking about releases. But that doesnĀ“t mean there canĀ“t be a roadmap.
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I am for roadmaps.
Worked with the project manager for the international airport build here and learnt quite a lot there.
They had their roadmap, gnat charts and so on. They tried to keep to a schedule of dates that did not account for he tiny amount of research (how to achieve that which has not been done before) needed and normal development uncertainty.
The management process has certainly changed over time and one reason they removed the schedule of dates milestones
And Iāve said before roadmaps are OK. My reference to milestones was dates, not progress āmilestoneā (see the context of milestone use in my post)
There is a lot to do with project management and schedule of dates has to be taken in context of the project type and time can be measured in more ways than a simple schedule of dates. Even a construction project has its schedule of dates and it schedule of dates/slippage/subprojects that can slip against other subprojects, target dates, critical dates, datelines. I am talking of putting fixed dates to a roadmap of milestones.
Didnt aspect so many replyās i can agree with some but mostly they are not true aswell.
Every company got ETAās, cause thats were they focus on themself, just they feel comfortable not telling them in case of delays. Thats why diffrent project approaches might be choosen think about Agile were things are beeing delivered in chunks, But to say maidsafe is diffrent is not true aswell, many company are diffrent they just dont wanna fail delivering on the ETA. And People dont forget ETAās can also change its for example when they changed to Rust.
But i dont think its a strange thing that people invested in your coin or equity wanna know were we at and whats the future.
Im working also on a R&D project building one of the worlds biggest ships and ETAās are not easy to give
but they are needed to keep people happy on the otherside, people that invested, banks, future clients.
We made something that was never done before, and what people also said cant be dont. But its build now
and just succesfully finished its first job.
This can even be discribed without a ETA.
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Letās all agree to disagree. Fact is that MaidSafe decided not to use specific deadlines. No one from MaidSafe will jump on one of these threads to give us any specific dates, weeks, months for TEST, alpha, beta, MVP or a final product.
Now people may not like this, they may think itās bad project management and they may think that by not doing so thereās not going to be a working network ever. Fine, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. These repetitive discussions are just a waste of everyoneās energy. If you believe in SAFE despite of there not being any deadlines then focus your energy on things that contribute. If you donāt believe in SAFE because of there not being any deadlines then itās best to focus your energy on something else.
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Nobody asked you to come here and waiste your time! Its a discussion topic, and indeed you get two sides people.
Also no one said they dont believe the project will fail cause of ETAās beeing given or not. Etaās are usefull to see the way through the forrest if your not technical there is no way thats a easy task.
Welcome to a forum were things can be asked.
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Still the devs are not going to do this
The timetables, if any, are in the dev updates. This is the purpose of @frabrunelle posting the dev updates, to inform us of where the devs are up to and if there are any forward dates available.
The decision was made a while back to not attempt at giving dates for the road map milestones, so asking the devs to do so will not result in any being given.
If you feel that project management cannot accommodate this then we personally will disagree on the matter.
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I think everyone can decide on his*her own what is or is not a waste of energy. Anyone including the developers is forced to participate in this conversation.
Roadmaps are great, but you have to know something about the roads to be able to map them.
Columbus proposes sailing West to discover to discover the East Indies and the Spanish Crown funds itā¦
Spanish Crown: Oi Chris, when you gonna be back? Weāll throw a party for your return; we canāt wait to have all the wonderful things youāll bring back with you to enrich all of our lives. Weāre funding your trip though, give us some more details, itās quite reasonable for us to want them.
Chris: Well, Iām not sure really. I mean, I know where Iām headed and why, but I have no idea what the waters or roads will be like on my way there, or whether my route will be straight or take me round many new lands. This is all completely uncharted territory, so it could take me months or years off any time I might predict.
Crown: Yeah Ok, but Iāve never heard of a voyage that didnāt at least give an approximate time frame. Come on, there are loads of other boats out there, they all give ETAs. Sure, some get delayed by storms and beset by pirates, but they all give you some kind of steer. We canāt invest in your voyage if we have no idea if or when you might get home.
Chris: Well, are any of those other voyages travelling epic distances to somewhere no one has ever been before, taking a route no one has ever travelled, with no idea what lies on it? And why exactly do you want a date? If it canāt be accurate then what use could it have for you?
Crown: No, I suppose this voyage is unusual, but how can we plan the welcome home party, or prepare for our own futures? We need to know when the world will be transformed by your return and revelations and treasures your voyage will uncover? At least give us some kind of vague date.
Chris: It would be irresponsible of me to give you any information that you might use to plan any kind of party or orientate any of your life-plans around. If I give you a date it will be wrong, so it will not help you with any of the things you want it to help you with. For all I know Iāll be eaten by cannibals on the first island I stop at. Or the naysayers might be right and the earth might be flat, I might sail right off the edge of it (lol @ dallyās laws of physics arguments ;))! The point is Iām going to try and I have good reason to believe I might succeed. If I do, you will be rich and the world will be a much smaller place with many new wonders in it. Now wish me luck and let me get on with risking my neck for the chance of success for you.
N.B. Iām not actually a fan of Columbus and I know heās not the āgreat manā posterity likes to paint him as. I just ran with the theme because it sounded good in my head lol 
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Yes, but it gets a bit old to see the same question being asked over and over. Just because people donāt like the answer it doesnāt mean that asking it over and over again will make the next answer any different.
So you are admitting that people are forced to participate? 
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I guess you got my point. If you feel annoyed by the question, I see no reason why you should participate. And I think it is absolutely fine to dicuss this issue over and over again at different times - at least as long the project develops. I think we are still at a very social level of conversation, but sometimes the response to critical issues like these sound bit like āshut upā.
Yes, my point here is that the consequence is counterproductive. If the repeated reference to stress that the team puts on itself doesnĀ“t raise a red flag, I believe itĀ“s time to reconsider. I find this a pretty theoretical debate. As I said, it seems to me that a majority of active users expect a completion/stable version rather soon (<12-24 months), on the other hand (partwise the same) people frame it as unpredictable research. It cannot be both.
When was the last time this was said. Not talking of normal stress that comes with any creative project, but the ādestructiveā kind you quoted
Yeah of course I got your point, but I couldnāt take a pass on pointing out your small mistake 
Anyway Iāve made my point and Iāve decided that to me itās a waste of energy to put more time in to this thread. The sun is shining so time to work on that vitamin D shortage 
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I donĀ“t know when it was said the last time, I only know it has been said on many different occasions. It was usually said when people asked for results. If I find some time I can look it up.
Oh, thatĀ“s absolutely fine, I thought I said something entirely incomprehensible. IĀ“m always up to improve my English
It has changed since they stopped with the dates they never could keep. The accusations and hamming the team got when another date passed was a lot of the stress. I donāt know personally the management process in MAIDSAFE, but i DO KNOW that good project management can proceed without set dates for milestones in the needed roadmap
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It seems to me like most can agree that a roadmap without timeframes would be good? But besides, they sometimes even give timeframes, like how many dev tutorials per timeframe, etc. So more like short-term timeframes, which is great I think.
/edit lol, my post needs timeframe deduplication
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With respect I think it was well beyond (also remembering that itĀ“s not long ago [end 2015] that David framed February/March 2016 for an MVP), but I have no intent in getting to a fact checking debate. Just want to say that I had a very different perception. There may have been accusations, but most of the debate was about the need of a roadmap rather than the need to deliver.
Also, I donĀ“t believe we need set dates (did I say so? hopefully not), but yes, I believe the team and PR would do way better with milestones and estimations.
These two are actually related. Those familiar with dev work know ETAs are just a tool to silence management for long enough that some work can be done, too. Deadlines are not a development thing, they are a business management thing, of which two we know that the former produces worth, the latter leaches off of it (sry for the overdone cynicism; itās kinda fun 
)
My point is, giving ETAs is kind of irresponsible but, in the presence of managerial pressure, a necessary evil. Iām happy the Maidsafe management (as devs themselves) could raise above this unnecessary pressure to produce a meaningless number. Not having an ETA is actually a sign of honesty.
As an explanation for what ETAs are meaningless in a literal sense (i.e. not as a āwe hate themā kind of sense.) Software is a network of interconnected concepts and components, so when you find a design error, while it usually affects just a small part, it can just as easily affect almost everything. Will it be a 5-minute fix or a 2-week redesign? Thereās literally no way to foresee that before it happens. Itās not like chopping trees; your error population does not have a āmean time of fixā, and you donāt know how many of them are out there, or how many more will be produced.
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I posted the official roadmap and asked if it was accurate. I liked the detail but Nick said it was too confusing and said they were discussing it last week. Is Nicks reply and them discussing it mean its getting attention and it will be done ? Time will tell.
David responded on the BNK forum that test safecoin was a minimum 4 months away. Could that forecast also mean test safecoin was 7 years away? It does sound better when you say its mininum 4 months away and now we have a timeline. Massaging certain things that relate to time creates a timeline. This is not cool and I have been vocal about making promises or creating illusions of timelines.
Many public companies have been taken private because they cannot stand the pressures from shareholders and founders are sick and tired of always having to answer to boardmembers that only understand the needs of shareholders. David doesnāt have the luxury of financing this project himswlf so he has the unenviable task of balancing the needs of all participants.
I see an unhealthy focus on spinning mediocrity into success. It became evident with progress on the fundraise. One person posting was boasting financial results on day one but neglected to include that the fundraising had started 3 or 4 days earlier. Meeting the minimum seemed to be the goal even for Chris Dixon on Bttf who pumped the investor to take it over the minimum but I didnāt hear any pumping to take it to the final goal. Such a big deal to get it over the minimum though. IMO this fundraiser was less about money and more about how the community and investing public perceived Maidsafe. While it raised money (actually less than the minimum b/c the $600k was already in the mill) it did not reveal any excitement for the project.
Iām a big believer in what David , Nick and Team are doing and have come to undertstand how magnanimous a task they have and do believe they need to take all the time they need- without pressure. I think there are many things that could be done differently outside of the development and have said as much.
I see apoligists as @FollowTheCycles noted. I see Davidās loyal followers always at the ready with sword in hand. I hope they see criticism as a tool for success.
With the funding in place lets hope that budgets are immediately created and spent on marketing - so Maidsafe gets removed form the top 100 Blockchain companies and a roadmap (sans dates) is created and we an all be proud to promote.
I suggest that is not difficult to create a timeline for creating a roadmap. This is a reasonable request.
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