Not yet, I’m still learning how that works
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I considered doing something very similar to what you have done for the reasons noted above, making it easy for newbs to get a taste of the network.
There is a lot to learn for folk that are not crypto savvy, computer savvy, and a whole list of other savvy’s, an app like this is a great place to get them interested.
I abandoned the idea because of the landmines and scalability concerns, if you navigate them well this definitely has legs!
I hope you will use the feedback to make it stronger and don’t find it discouraging.
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Absolutely
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It’s much worse than that. Your data can easily be lost, censored etc. Let’s hear what the benefits are to the people using this, and whether they will understand that they are not the things that Autonomi will be known for.
@Traktion you keep talking as if this discussion is about telling people what to do when it is about ensuring that users and developers understand what these choices mean.
This is wrong. Think about it or read my explanations.
These misconceptions, that you get the same benefits because data is somewhere 
on Autonomi are exactly what worries me.
If the domain or server disappears how are you going to accesd your data?
So a single download that opens the gateway to a world of inherently secure apps which deliver all the benefits of Autonomi is bad UX but having to maintain reliable backups, and know what to do with them is good UX? And if you don’t, risk losing all your data.
How is the better than the status quo.
I’m going to leave this now. It seems pointless and I just don’t have time to keep pointing out the same issues repeatedly.
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Here is a list of many mp3s on the network. How do I add them to your app?
Check out the Impossible Futures!
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This is just one of hundreds, even thousands of future portals to the network. I used it to upload a public file and share it here on the forum.
Even if the specific portal dies, my file remains public forever. The service of such portals will be perfect for whistleblowers.
You generate an address in the portal via VPN, point a few nodes to the address, upload your public file - you are anonymous. Currently in Europe it is very difficult to buy Ethereum anonymously, everywhere they ask you who you are even for pennies, such portals will be a perfect solution for anonymous sharing.
Check out the Impossible Futures!
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I thought the point I this was for “grannies”.
Look, I’ve explained that the are serious problems for users in this, especially ordinary folk, and that will damage the idea that Autonomi secures their data and privacy.
If the target is whistleblowers, then that’s worse tbh. But I do not have the time to answer every argument put up in defense of building on the old broken foundations that drive Autonomi into existence.
Everyone, please take the above as a stock response and take time to understand what using intermediary servers means in practice.
Look for the holes, and explain properly why it is better than building a Dweb app. And when you’ve done that, give me a mention.
I’m sorry, but I feel this is disingenuous.
I certainly appreciate anyone who is keen to explain and underline best practices. Perhaps a thread dedicated to such things would be beneficial too. This then becomes a resource to allow people to choose the level of usability vs best practices.
However, I don’t think that is what is happening, currently. What I am seeing is criticism of apps which don’t hold true to a certain set of ideals, to the extent of suggesting they are ‘harmful’ to the network.
Ofc, you are free to hold your ideals close to your heart. I can see that you do. Everyone has their own take on what Autonomi can do for them or other users though.
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I’ve not spoken in an idealistic way but have pointed out a few I the issues, which as we can see, some were not aware of.
I’ve contrasted usingintermediate servers with an available alternative and explained the ways in which Dweb is better. I’ve not heard a convincing response to those points and have answered some, but can’t keep replying here all day.
You responded more than once as if I was trying to dictate what people should and should not do which is not true and not what I’ve been saying.
My concern is not perfection, but delivering on Autonomi’s promises, and always has been.
Dweb is far from perfection.
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When you suggest applications that don’t adhere to a set of ideals are ‘harmful’ or ‘misleading’, it looks very much like attempting to dictate what people should be doing. They are evocative words.
If it is not your intention to have this impact, maybe reflect on how others may perceive what you are writing. Different people can read the same sentence and easily glean separate meanings from it.
Autonomi is a platform, with a set of features. It can be used to create highly privacy conscious apps, it can be used to share harmless memes, or anything in between and beyond.
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I got the impression that you might not be very enthusiastic about portals. In my community, I haven’t been able to get anyone to install Dweb so far. I hope it’s just that I’m not doing a great job promoting it, but it’s been over 8 months since the network launched, and I’m starting to think that the best chance for new people to join is if we make it easy for them to just click on links. That’s why your comments are a bit discouraging for me personally.
Check out the Impossible Futures!
To me this discussion seems ridiculous. How on earth can I dictate this and why would I think I could? I’m here to help create freedom and autonomy through Autonomi 
I used the words you quoted because I believe them to be true. I’ve also saId why I believe this direction is harmful and will mislead people - and we can see evidence of the latter already.
If you disagree that’s fine, by all means say so and maybe explain why, but you choose to accuse me of something you imagined but which is not true.
I’ve seen you take this line of argument with others. I’m not going to continue with this debate.
Dweb and the world of apps it opens up is barely crawling, but it delivers privacy and security.
The only way it can get up and walk is if developers build apps that also deliver and help make it attractive enough for the early adopters to use. Then grow from there, wave by wave. That’s always how it works. From penny farthing to bicycles, automobiles, planes, email, the web.
You can’t skip this by creating a lot of inherently dangerous planes and offering cheap tickets. If you do that, you get a bad reputation and will lose all possibility of being trusted again.
Frankly I’ve not even asked my partner to try Dweb yet, not because she couldn’t (and she is our target - not tech savvy but privacy aware and backs Autonomi).
The reason I don’t promote it outside the developer community and here is that we need more and better apps. Otherwise there’s no point in me improving it, and I’ll give up entirely because what is happening - building portals - will just make it harder to get people to even look at it.
This is why I see this direction - apps on web servers - as damaging. Everyday folk will, as always choose the easy to find and adopt over something slightly harder to find and adopt, no matter how bad that choice is for them.
That’s exactly why we didn’t end up with the open democratic web Sir Tim and many of us who were there from the start wanted and expected. Yet even here we are following (unconsciously) the same dark patterns that enabled the enclosure and enshitification of the old web. We risk hiding the healthy food among a preponderance of bad candy in a misguided rush for numbers instead of building a safe path to SAFE, that anyone can find and follow towards privacy and security.
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……..umm, by using the Autonomi network,
I just don’t understand, is that a question in good faith? SAFE-FS absolutely uploads everything to Autonomi.
And other SAFE apps can access the pointers too, which have been backed up. Once I learn how to use appendable data, I think that’s a good way to back up all the uploaded data pointers straight to Autonomi too. Making it even easier to backup.
And again, I made this version with limited knowledge. You seem to keep getting frustrated with the first design I made with zero help or input from anyone, after years of not even knowing if the network was ready yet.
I’ll continue to learn and improve this, please don’t worry
But be advised itmight take me more than the first 48 hrs to un-learn my decades of traditional app architecture and learn all the best principles for building globally decentralized apps on this latest version of SAFE fully. But that is absolutely my goal, don’t worry. And if you even look into this early version of SAFE-FS you’ll find it to be more decentralized than you’re giving it credit for
And I kind of already am able to piece together a path to full decentralization I think?
Decentralize To-Do’s (SAFE-FS):
- Uploading –> possible
(API) - Wallets –> possible but people need to use web3 wallets, plugins etc which is hard for casuals
so the backend server built in web3 wallets might be required forever, for an ease-of-use option - Index of data –> possible Appendable Data, so all SAFE-FS exports get saved there and all it takes is remembering one hash address to backup all data / restart SAFE-FS without a trad server
Already fully decentralized (SAFE-FS):
- Storage of all data
- Streaming audio
- Streaming video
(working on today) - Downloads (fixed this yesterday. Doesn’t download through server’s /tmp/ folder anymore. I learned that was wrong, and how to download files straight from SAFE which is actually much faster for the user too. Feel like this theme will carry over)
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Get the payment order expired or not found again.
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How large is the file?
And Did you refresh like last time to see?
I do have a way planned to speed up uploads, and make it more decentralized / faster long term though
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Thinking about it, it doesn’t seem like a misconception, though we may be making different assumptions: if data is uploaded via some app, but the data is on Autonomi, and the user retains a link to the data that can be accessed via a Dweb / Anttp / Other native Autonomi app, then the permanence and censorship resistance is still a benefit that applies to that data despite it being handled initially by a server based app.
I understand a server based app could be made that removes the benefits of permanence and censorship resistance by withholding the data addresses from the user, or formatting the data in a way that makes it unintelligible without the server based app, and in that case of course there’s little / no benefit to the user of the app using Autonomi on the back end.
So, server-based gateways could be done well, or badly with regards to user control of data. These could provide some benefits of Autonomi to users, or not depending on how they’re done, and they can clearly add benefits in terms of ease of use for people getting started.
It’s good to flag up concerns and risks, and to encourage people towards the solutions that make the most of the network, but server based systems may be helpful in getting started until a great user experience for direct Autonomi access exists (e.g. multi-platform Autonomi browser + app store + wallet that requires zero CLI stuff… why doesn’t this exist already… we pretty much had it on test networks 6 years ago: The Safe Browser).
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yeah the SAFE Browser was awesome
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Also working on a Moderator panel at SAFE-FS Moderator Panel, if anyone wants to be a SAFE-FS mod / help manage files etc. Kind of helpful as long as there’s a server (which won’t be forever)
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