Obviously I understand all that.
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Sorry didn’t mean to repeat anything.
Is that the central tradeoff though? The only way to not have a server is to download something that has the Autonomi CLI running locally right?
I guess the only way to offer a downloadless / install-free experience is if somehow the CLI could be built into the frontend of a web app somehow? That is probably impossible though.
Until we get a JS API / wrapper for the ANT RPC
It’s perfectly OK to have a server side at this stage and in the next n-years. As an investor in your token, I would like to see a high level of usability of the platform you are building, even if it is for a short-term reduction in decentralization.
Check out the Impossible Futures!
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Right I was just brainstorming / hoping for a way to avoid that central tradeoff. But it might not exist yet
Anyone remember safe.JS from many years ago? That was awesome to work with back in the day, and something like that would fix this issue.
Then you could have truly (traditional)serverless decentralized apps running straight from a single html file
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Not CLI but API yes. But once the user has Dweb there are numerous advantages for them and developers, while avoiding all the problems of being dependent on a server (too many to list).
Autonomi have tried to make this possible and given up. I believe the difficulty is lack of support for networking through the browser, so all you have is WebRTC and that’s not adequate.
There are though advantages to a local Dweb server for users and developers, and ultimately - like the web browser - this could be part of the OS itself.
A few advantages for users:
- one download for access to all Dweb websites and apps loaded directly from Autonomi
- access to every version of every website and web app they ever use so no risk of losing access to data through server overload, DDoS, expirey or takeover of domains, developer disappearing etc
- a single wallet and ID for everything, and the ability to have multiple IDs separate from wallet addresses
- privacy and security max - everything is end-to-end encrypted - no leakage, hacked servers, guaranteed access to their data forever and no risk of breaches, monitoring or leaking of data on the server
- no way to identify you by monitoring IP access to the server, tracking visits to the domain (which is routine in many countries now, including UK)
For developers there are also advantages:
- use existing web app skills, tooling and frameworks including hot reloading
- standard REST API for access to Autonomi APIs
- test on a local network before publishing to Autonomi
- Dweb handles the wallet (though this will need enhancing, and soon will wantPaymaster support, but I don’t have time to do these. It would be best if this moved from a one person project anyway, so I would welcome contributions and help)
Those are off the top of my head. I may make time to write a blog post but things are going to get full on for me real soon and so I’m cutting down my ambitions to small simple things for the time being. Maybe a blog will be a good use of time 
You can read my blog on Autonomi, download the AutonomiDweb App and enter ‘toast’ and click Open. Or you can read it at https://toast.happybeing.com. That is built using Publii which is very like WordPress but runs as a local desktop app and creates a static website you can upload to Autonomi as-is.
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Don’t know if you seen this @whiteout2 but I thought of another question. What happens to the data on your server after it is uploaded to autonomi? Is it deleted?
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yeah it’s held in /tmp/ in the server so that the CLI can upload it with payment etc, then deleted every 15min or so by a service. That is really all I use the server for, because I’m not totally clear on a better way to do things yet. But the data is always on SAFE (I’m going to continue to call it that until they change the name back 
) and the “Chat” tab has an export button to see all the file hashes / addresses for all files, messages, and all data uploaded by users on SAFE-FS. For porting to other apps etc. So we are just an app on the app layer, data is open
I definitely understand this, but I just have this nagging thing in my head like ok, are all the grandmas etc of the world going to truly go to github.com/whatever/releases and download something, wait for it to finish, install it, wait for it to load / cache things, and then only after all of those intense steps, start to use the Autonomi network? Assuming no failures along the way
Or should we make it at least as easy as going to Google.com (which they still mess up )
No amount of Pros / Cons will ever get this focus out of my head. If we aren’t at least as easy to use as existing services, we aren’t thinking clearly enough when designing our services
But it takes all types, and I hope you can value this perspective as much as I value yours. There will absoltely be power users, and they might even make up the majority one day. But let’s break 10k users first And for that, we need to create low hanging fruit 
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Finished that live music streamer I was talking about. Our new SAFE-FS App v3 Music tab
No backend for this. Streams directly from Autonomi (AKA SAFE 
)
Please upload more music!
SAFE-FS will continue to evolve, in surprising ways each day
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so everytime someone uploads a file via your website, it goes into one of these folders like Img, Vid, Music, etc?
There’s little if any benefit to people using such a server based system just because data ends up on Autonomi.
It’s a poor argument to suggest that from day one every person in the world should find it as easy as using google. That’s never been how technology works. As more and more people adopt it, things come together. Just go back through the history of the web and you can see how this works. Web browsing, email and countless other technologies because universally usable over time became they became more and more popular generally.
You can’t have this from day one.
If you want to get there, don’t start by giving people the same rubbish and pretending it is hardly better than what they have already. You need people to adopt this because there are benefits they understand and can see delivered, not undermined by the same problems that affect services more and more every week.
If you seriously had a system that got massive adoption based on this I would be shouting from the rooftops not to use it, because it is harmful, for the reasons I explained.
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Yeah I’m with @happybeing we are trying to get rid of the middlemen aren’t we? Seems you have just made yourself a middleman.
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The network - when running/existing/surviving - enables all those self hosted services by anybody who is able to do it and chooses to do it…
Be glad that @whiteout2 tries this route - introducing people to the network with little friction is a good first step and I’m with whiteout here (and think people can try to help/advise him but shouldn’t tell him what is right or wrong because nobody knows the path to success and nobody should pretend to know…)
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Just to clarify @whiteout2 I’m not trying to tell anyone what is right or wrong just finding out what is right or wrong for me. On a personal level I’m not happy uploading my data through an app that will have some form of access to my data. That’s one of the main reasons I’m here, me and my family’s privacy.
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I actually don’t like that my data will be on a centralized server even for 15 minutes as well. I thought the upload is going directly to Autonomi… I applaud all of these efforts but for me personally, I am more inclined to communicate with the network directly, if possible. I hope DAVE is direct without a middleman, am I correct?
I will still use your app, but I will be more aware of what to upload
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The autonomi network doesn’t dictate how it is used. It doesn’t have an opinion of what is harmful. It is a distributed data network, which can be used however people choose to use it.
I don’t think this forum should start gate keeping what can or should be developed on the network.
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In cases such as these perhaps it may be good to simply make it clear to users that the data could be seen by a 3rd party.
I have been traveling and have not been able to use the app.
Does it offer private data uploads? In which case the issue is greater than if it only offers public uploads.
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A huge benefit is permanence and censorship resistance.
As long as the data could be accessed directly from Autonomi then that is a significant benefit vs hosting on a server that can cut off access, censor, modify, or require repeat fees etc.
As I understand it, any other app could point to the same data uploaded in SAFE-FS and allow access without the SAFE-FS gateway, as the data is on the network.
I love what you’ve done with Dweb, but its UX isn’t ready for non-techy users.
I love what @whiteout2 is working on with SAFE-FS that is easy for anyone to access, but it’s not yet maximising decentralisation, security and privacy.
I hope both projects keep taking steps to deliver both a great UX and uncompromised decentralisation, security, and privacy. It’s brilliant to have people coming at things from different angles.
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Exactly. We’ve built it to be friendly to that. Just click the Export button to dismiss the hash addresses for all files that have been uploaded through SAFE-FS
No gatekeeping here
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What if SAFE-FS was hosted on AnTTP? I think that’s possible right? I’m still learning what AnTTP is, to be honest. But then nobody could take down SAFE-FS as an app.
I guess that just leaves the backend as the only point of potential failure for now then. I will need to learn how to get rid of that fully, if possible
Exciting, powerful stuff though 
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