Who decides who to bring in or not? I thought SAFE was supposed to be permissionless?
Who’s idea is right? You are going right back to hierarchy again. King Warren says People that believe SAFE ought to go left can play, but people that say it should go right ought to be voted off the island? Remember You don’t know who they are. They can go along with the flow for a long time before they show their true face…
What if the crowd doesn’t like your idea of anonymity. Can they just throw it out? Why not? Because you are King?
All in all you are prescribing a ruleset that is a ruleset imposed on people. Just like any other manager would.
Like I said again and again and again. There is no difference.
You are right back to how I told you co-operatives work in real life then.
You have a strong leader that brings in like minded folks and excludes dissenters. Its called censorship.
Build a committee of yes men. then you can pretend there is flat heirarchy when there really is nothing of the sort.
There are going to be all kinds of people wanting to use SAFE… If you restrict who can play and who can’t who can contribute and who can’t you have undermined the core principal of “FOR EVERYONE” If IBM contributes developers Terabytes bandwidth etc, they are vested members of the community. They deserve a say, because they are active contributors. And they have lots of Phd’s that are probably the smartest guys in most rooms.
In the end if you leave it in the hands of committee those with the deepest pockets and the strongest interest are going to gain control. You need a principaled leader to monopolize the vision in order to keep it from wandering wherever anyone wants to pull it. Because SAFE isn’t the only architecture that will work. It could have been working long ago if certain sacrifices where made here or there… If it’s flat lots of people will want to pull it in lots of directions. And why shouldn’t they?
But not SAFE as the example but rather the MaidSAFE organization.
Its like Richard Wolff’s Republican Marxists or the Silicon cooperatives. These guys were making 300k per year more for while and got bored with their playground versions of the corporate work place. It was way to constraining and they felt stifled. So a group of friend from that background would form a cooperative of equals. And then Wolff would have to break it to these conservatives that they were practicing the heart of Marx recommendation.
This is really an old concept. Outside of apprentice or journeyman developmental states (and even then) the guilds and frats had equality in their frarternity and fidelity. There was a statement attributed to Crowley: There are many kings in peasants clothing, kick them as you may you can’t keep them down.
We have capitalists who really don’t take orders. They resent taxes are always trying to evade it and threatening flight. All the ever do is demand their 10% on point of firing the saps who are to deliver it. Where is their boss?
Under their system money is supposed to be power (their demands based on intentionallt scarce money getting fulfilled) and thet want that money in magic carpet digital form so they can do stupid rent seeking things like negative interest. That means money is data or unfortunately under their system, which you think is inevitable, that data is power. You like SAFE and the decentralization of power but don’t the contradiction in you getting bent out of shape when the same decentralization process is applied to the work place and productive means.
The Loomia people emailed back. Said they’d be happy to check out SAFE.
We need another way. Boris Johnson in England just made reference to the “Wealth Creators” and how new Labour is a bunch of “Trots” and “Tankies.” Meanwhile New Labor’s Corbyn crashed the Tory launch party 2x with groups of 10000 and 7000. New Labour says austerity is rubbish. But look at that ‘wealth creator’ claim. Wealth for who? Looking at what has happened to the British people they are actually wealth suppressors and wealth stealers. Its not about wealth but about power, and they make sure the population is powerless by driving them into poverty to retain power through the wealth differential. Look at the TPP over here, its said to be just like GATT and NAFTA. The cooperative is about the only structure that makes sense to try to resist these mass impoverishment movements. Its a commitment to a close group of friends. In a way it would be you against the world. In a group of 100 people you can find the talent to do just about anything, especially with new automation. But in such a group I don’t think there is going to be any stomach for the busy work type of employment that constitutes most work in phony economy of current capitalism, its inevitable state. Really, people would be much better off on the dole than working fast food, making people sick and neglecting their children with their constant can’t-make-ends-meet-even-with-assistance absence.
Here are links to some of the tech that can bring about a post corporate world and allow for highly automated cooperatives that are widely distributed but smaller and don’t contain the overhead of useless hierarchy, no supervisors, managers, execs, boards or stock holders:
4chan at the core of the corporate replacement?
Maybe complete anonymity in the core decision process where threads comments are possibly liked SAFE style (vice upvoted- uncertain to the top of the stack) but without reference to names or pronouns pseudonyms or even anon 1, anon 2 etc. to attribute the comments to. Very much 4chan style. 4chan does seem revolutionary but it needs to be running tech like SAFE exclusively on SAFE type mesh on end user owned networks and hardware- a global mesh of possibly of SAFE hardware verified SAFE phones running using SAFE browser and SAFE OS.
Here’s how Managerscan be Replaced by Software (and by implication execs and board members) (Harvard Business Review)
Real time collaborative action software
Loomio is the easiest way to make decisions together. Loomio empowers organisations and communities to turn discussion into action, wherever people are
Already in a world where machines increasingly out work us even in fluid movement and more and more in fluid cognitive tasks- recall the current notion that cognition grew out of kinetic function
Let us not forget how automated physical bots are getting, its not just driverless cars but real Androids terminator style. Human work will be relegated to what ever machines cognitively and physically don’t do better. But in the process we can end the corporate world and replace it with human systems that accelerate tech and help us better address the existential challenges that the suicidal mindless numb corporate world has brought about.
I think DAOs, distributed autonomous organizations, are a very interesting possibility. But I don’t think they will replace ordinary companies. More likely, companies will use DAOs to enhance their own businesses. Later on, when the DAOs have evolved enough, then they can start to compete with ordinary companies and organizations. And even further into the future, when AI can run whole DAOs, there will still be inputs from us humans, at the very least as consumers (I don’t think we will have any Skynet).
I can see a time when for work and many creative task we are removed from the working world. And then its a pie slicing contest. The corporatists could see the pie slicing conflict coming back in the 70s and that is why we have the current excuse called the corporate world in the way of everything.
I think humanity has one task ahead of it: completely dismantle and replace the corporate world as fast as humanly possible as a matter of survival.
This movement to end corporate rights and money as speech etc., doesn’t go remotely far enough, we need to outlaw corporations and replace them them with cooperatives automated or otherwise as soon as humanly possible. Corporatism was a stage in our social development, it brought us some good tech but it was always a bad or far from perfect trade off and now instead of serving us it is attempting to rule over us. Rebuttals regarding efficiency and effectiveness are completely idiotic to the point of being farcical, our freedom and our survival matter infinitely more than those coded appeals to money. To survive we are going to have move beyond the stupidity of top down control and rule.
Edit: This is a futuristic post inspired by Arthur C. Clarke’s “laws”:
When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.
The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
One idea is that the real decision system in the future will be a huge AI computer cloud. And we humans will be connected to the cloud wirelessly by nanobots interacting with the neurons in our brains. (And even further into the future even our neurons will be nanobots (femtobots, attobots, etc) themselves.)
In such scenario, there would be only one decision system! And the system would be both decentralized and hierarchical, depending of what task is performed.
And for manufacturing, extremely advanced 3D printing can make production of physical products decentralized. For example, if I want a flying car, I can let it materialize out of “thin air” with an invisible (subatomic smart particle swarm) Star Trek replicator. And when the car is no longer needed it can dematerialize itself within a fraction of a second.
The energy for that will be extracted from the quantum vacuum. The second law of thermodynamics is only a statistical average measurement. When the quantum vacuum can be manipulated on subatomic levels, then that allows a Maxwell’s demon effect with overunity. And physical particles can be extracted from the vacuum energy. We have already done that in a crude way:
"Quantum physics: Shaking photons out of the vacuum
The dynamical Casimir effect — the generation of photons out of the quantum vacuum induced by an accelerated body — has been experimentally demonstrated using a superconducting circuit that simulates a moving mirror." – Shaking photons out of the vacuum | Nature
You know what Suarez said about the corporation in that sense: its a sacculina parasite. A barnical that attaches to a crab and overides its nervous system taking control of it. Its a parasite, relative to the actual potential of a group of people or society. And with the cloud AI you don’t have in mind the borg but something truely organic and symbiotic and that is fine with me as it hologhraphic, flattened and developmental. But a corporation is like replacing an elephant’s brain with a paramecium. Its a lobotomy and its also a form of paracitism hence the current popular facination with zombies and vampires. Its literally rule by idiots. It takes the most under developed people in terms of critical humanity and culls these puppets to the top and turns it into a beauty pagent bases on anti-virtue. When breeding gets involved I don’t know if you could even call them “excellent sheep.” Its rule by people in the same state as Parris Hilton.
There is still hope of insurection and subversion. Despite Satya Nadella’s recent horrid record he grew up outside the ‘developed world’ in the India of the recent past. He has a disabled child. His dad was a Marxist economist. They just put that guy at the top of the business back door installer.
I’ve had that vision of the AI cloud in my mind for a long time. Peter F. Hamilton explores it in his books the Dreaming Void, Temporal Void and Judas Unchained, but has people becoming immortal and the transphysical with it. Robert Monroe explores it or something beyond in his book Far Journey. Michael Newton describes something like it in his work on life between lives. Alex Marchand in his book The Universe is Virtual, and Thomas Campbell in his book “My Big Toe,” which I year to read.
And the Grand Metaphysical Natrative of Science now seems to have us living in a black hole with a universe that has God in/over/suffused. Noting that a programmer has transrational, acausal, non physical/temporal power over a simulated world, understanding that no intelligence (really consciouness/awareness) would be artificial, and blending in the Omega point idea, cosmic anthropic principle, infinite (possibly) branching universes, extended Fermi Principle, the odds of us being on the edge of being able to simulate compeling fields of experience (universes) now and black branes, and the notion that physical laws may be evolving or that everything seems to be alive or cellular- we you get the old Hindu idea that we are connected to it all and can never be separated its all a dream and we’er the dreamer dreaming it and being dreamt by it, even the idea/experience of separtion and our body and the shifting map of a dream (science/knoweledge) is all a dream, all poetry. The only hierarchy in a dream are the shifting phases, like the hero’s journey. In the hierarchy of development hierarchy itself is an obstacle to be over come.
I don’t see a lot of researching/discussion into building an app here (anymore). Would OP ( @Warren ) still like to receive advice, discussion about development or might it be better to start a new thread in off-topic where you can continue this talk?
The world would be a better place if we banned poop too.
Which is just as feasible.
The question that Warren can never ever ever seem to answer “How are you going to ban it without utilizing another form of tyranny even more powerful?”
“Fiat” may work in your high school debate but it doesn’t work as an answer it in the real world… Co-ops and other organizational structures are no better – when put into practice. You can pretend they are better in theory. But most of the demonization of corporations is just that. Demonizations. Most companies are actually quite pleasant to work for until you are burnt out… Then you go work someplace else.
@warren, How many companies have you worked for? How many corporations? How many co-ops? How many sole proprietors? Have you ever started your own company?
@melvin, oh yes better to avoid the constant criticism want to see if people who actually build this stuff are interested. It seems to me that 4chan actually has a lot of model so thanks to artiscience.
But then should the title change to something like 4chan model at the heart of the cooperative. The massive skepticism from some is surprising. If one doesn’t like the idea then let it go. I am not proposing bring back the Soviet Union.
@jreighley its not like tyranny is the only thing that works, there are other options.
I am not on trial, its not about me or testimonials or any of that ad hoc attack stuff. You’re coming across like: light bulbs don’t work we’ve tried many designs they’ll never work and who are you to question this show us your qualifications to defy us? I’ve said again and again that the present order isn’t work and and isn’t sustainable. Look at the starvation in the world. So its necessity that drives looking for something better. And no corporations don’t work for most people for most people they are just like the movie Office Space. They are soul killing. I get for you this like me trying to put out an alternative bible. But just let that go.
Ok, I got it. But there is no point in the constant it won’t work objections. Lets talk about how it can work or at least allow people supportive of it to try to discuss how it could go somewhere instead of the force of personality veto.
Your concern have in my opinion been addressed. Everytime you respond like this you bump the thread without providing new content. Its destroying what value the thread my have. Its like some sort of filibuster tantrum.
