I did not say the same. My example relies on it being different, otherwise it is even worse. Remember the more useless junk upload the greater it costs. Thus low ROI[quote=“TungSvard, post:205, topic:5805”]
Testing is what it must come down to. That I can agree with.
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A lot of this discussion on both sides is conjecture using experience, without testing we cannot be sure
Look both PtD and PtP basically reward the same thing: content. They’re basically the same thing but for some reason we like to think apps and app devs are special. Right now Maidsafe is being developed so everyone’s interest is on the devs but guess what? When SAFE actually gets released and rolling odds are the majority of people won’t care. Whens the last time you heard someone talking about an update to HTTP or an update to how various internet proticols work? For some privacy experts and techs it’s big news but for the average person on the street not so much. “The internet works! I can look at my favorite cat pics yay!” Is pretty much their speed.
My point is being a dev doesn’t make you any more special than any other occupation. People may or may not care. So why not figure out something that works for all creative works rather than just one?
PtD and PtP reward a subjective value. We try hard to pretend PtD is objective and can be measured but really it’s not and it can’t be that well. So how about something like this:
We assign each content it’s own structured data coin, it’s own alt coin. Alt coins can be measured. The purpose of these alt coins is NOT to be traded but as a token of value the network can measure.
So for example you have “Maidsafe Developers” with devcoin. People that value this and want more development for patches, applications and so forth. They could then indicate which projects were of higher priority to them by spending the devcoin to “vote up” the projects. So say you wanted more updates or more patches? You’d spend your devcoin there and the network would then up their priority, which would mean those techs working on those projects would get more safecoin, which would mean increased incentive to work on patches and updates. You could do the same thing with apps by creating an appcoin or with content for contentcoin. In fact you could just make the whole thing generic, devs, apps, content, with like a "contentprioritiycoin’ or something (yes I know it needs a better name). But like you’d take your priocoin and spend it on the project you wanted to up in the network’s priority list. If that means you want more porn over a faster SAFE network update well… will of the people. As for the amount of safecoin sent to various projects that’s determined by how much priocoin people buy. If you want to donate 10% of your earnings to the network then invest 10% of your earnings in priocoin. If you don’t want to invest 20% then buy 20% worth in priocoin. If you don’t want to invest anything then doing buy any.
This way news, art, updates, apps, could all be supported equally. You could have PtP/PtD and have it all voluntarily supported. If you want to support your favorite artist then send him priocoin. If you want to support your favorite welfare or health group send them priocoin. If you want to support an app send it priocoin. If you want to support a news service send it priocoin. In short if you want to use a collectivist model then you can use priocoin. If you want to send a set amount then you can just send a set amount of safecoin.
I’m sure this idea needs some tinkering to get the kinks out but that’s the gist of it.
In short priocoin would buy “network redistribution priority” similar to how safecoin buys computer resources. Priocoin, like it’s safecoin sibling, would get recycled back into the system (destroyed) once it was spent to buy priority for a party on the network.
I see why you disagree so much if this is your view.
You need to see it from the health of the network. And what the network can do to change our thinking from the old top down control systems.
Excellent, and this does not preclude the network helping to pay the artist’s cost of materials to produce/make his work.
So create ways to pay the artist/creator that value the quality of their works.
Excellent idea.
The network helps out with the costs of materials and you create ways to reward the artist/creator for the quality of their work.
It never will. Ever. It is impossible to look at some data and derive a price from it. This is why you can only price objective properties universally.
As has been said, even small payments would be gamed, as soon as you define how ‘good’ data is measured. The chances of this stuff actually being valuable to anyone - a subjective assessment by each user - will become tiny. The rest of the generated guff will be act as a parasite on the network, siphoning off money to those who abuse the system.
I know supporters of PtP have good intentions, but it is a folly. Time and resources would be far better spent making it easier for creators to create and publish content and for consumers to access and pay for content they like. In short, make the market as free and open as possible.
We already know with complete certainty what can be measured objectively and what cannot be. We don’t need to test this.
Respectively you do not do this. There is no measurements or even approximations.
We never need to test what you see as truth? Well I am willing to have my views tested.
We disagree and I doubt that will change with more repeating what we’ve already said.
Perhaps I’ve missed this one - it’s a long thread and so I apologize if this argument has already been put forward.
It seems to me that PtP will end up being an advertising subsidy to big players as they will have the capital to put out a mass advertising campaign and they will earn a return on the campaign – effectively they will be subsidized by the network. The small players on the other hand have little to no capital, so they will get little to nothing from this relatively speaking.
As this is the whole of the community supporting this (paid by the network), then effectively we are being forced into subsidizing the big fish.
Personally I think this stinks – for both app devs and content producers. Hence I’m adamantly opposed to this idea PtP and PtD.
I hope people will think through the implications of this and how it will be gamed - IMO, if SAFEnet goes this route, it’s begging to be forked and I really don’t want to see that happen.
Thanks for the respect, but seriously, you really need to get this at a fundamental, philosophical level.
One person’s bad art is another person’s great art. One person’s terrible app, is another person’s favourite app. No matter what metrics you use, this will never change. It is nothing to do with safe net, finding the right algorithm or whatever, is is hard reality. People just like different stuff, for an infinite and undefinable number of reasons.
If you want to reward something based on metrics, these metrics must be universally preferable and measurable. We can all agree that faster, cheaper, storage will improve the network and we can all independently verify these criteria as objective facts.
I know I am repeating myself, but it is critical for everyone to understand this. We fundamentally cannot programmatically reward what is subjectively valued, using objective measurements.
This will happen no matter how they are paid. The difference is the more its downloaded the more caching kicks in and somewhat levels the playing field.
The network is doing it. You don’t give anything to it, ever.
If the network runs out of coin it gives them no more, and does not dip into your “wallet”. Remember though all the coin paid out returns to the network.
So in terms of SAFEcoin you pay nothing for it. The network will receive it all back at some stage so the cycle can continue. Even if we have as much as 40% content with the ptp address added, the farmers still be getting 25 times as much all ptp combined. Its unlikely to get that high since a lot will be dedup and a lot of puts are for private data.
Some have and actually did some maths on the possible gaming. Its so little compared to what it appears to be.
BUT if it is introduced then its tested long before the network is live with safecoin and can be pulled if your opinions are proved to be correct. So doubtful there is any need to fork.
A picture apt for this thread…you couldn’t ask for a better portrayal for the absurdities of war. What were these guys getting paid?
This thread has been such a slugfest, is it time to run the poll again and compare the results?
Everyone’s had a chance to put forward their views…maybe folk have switched sides or are ready to hop off the undecided fence.
Excellent advise @chrisfostertv. I need to take heed of that.
So don’t pay producers and developers … why give the big fish a subsidy?
This is not true. SAFEcoin will be a form of money. When the network favors (gives handouts) to one group or another it is diluting the value of the money I am holding – effectively some of my money is being taken from me and given to others without my ability to choose - I would consider that theft.
Recycling is irrelevant to this fact. I appreciate that farmers are paid by the network - that is what allows the network to exist and is therefore the cost of having the system as a whole. Paying out to others is however unacceptable to me as it is taking from my spending power without my specific consent.
You can’t know that. This is pure speculation on your part. No models are 100% and in fact there is no way to know what percentage of accuracy any model will have. So get off your high horse - you are being preachy.
Untrue again. Big money won’t engage with the network until much later, so as per my argument anyway, it’s not testable as it invovles real human economic decisions with big players.
your personal doubt is not in question.
Well that was what the whole priocoin idea was about. Though I think that kind of thing might need some network work and/or significant app work.
No way.This will just unnecessarily delay everything.
David has already said it is a couple of lines of code to implement. The code is there for the other reward given. Just needs to be called with PtP parameters, or PtD parameters. No delay
An ROI nevertheless. Plenty of hackers would be giddy over a break-even scenario let alone get paid by someone with malicious intent against SAFE or by ransom. If a system can be attacked, it will be attacked.
Lets not penalise the genuine artists/creators and deny then support for their material costs to upload to SAFE.
The ROI for serious gamers dies off as soon as they try to get above a tiny tiny amount of ROI
Keep in mind it can take days to setup a test to simulate an attack let alone the time it takes to write the apps to launch the attack so some advanced planning is required. And if a vulnerability is found, who knows how quickly a fix can be implemented if at all.
Huh? Proof-of-resource for farming on SAFE can be gamed? Please enlighten me with some previous posts, especially from the dev team if this is really true. I can’t be the only one who doesn’t know this.
Look up farming by Amazon posts. That is gaming farming.
The professional farming posts is also gaming the system… Remember not all gaming is bad or to be avoided
It really looks like some are just looking out to maximise the coin fiat price and forget that this project is not about fiat price for the coin, but about changing how the internet works and provide alternatives for the current systems
