LIFE IS PEOPLE #75 Paige Peterson

You may not have noticed but I was not talking about welfare on an abstract level but about (social) welfare. Asides: collectives and individuals essentially conflict and every political system struggles with finding an equilibrium. There will be no collective welfare with absolute freedom for the arguments I presented in my post above. There ain’t no such thing as a free lunch. There are only different kinds of capital.

P.S.: your second sentence is mere ideology and does not really serve any argument.

Oh Actually he is, you just quoted examples that work similarly. The World Bank - surprise, surprise - doesn´t make money on ad revenue. Whether you dislike the World Bank or not really is of any importance here.

Perhaps they don’t make money on ad revenue but that isn’t the issue at hand. The issue is do they need to be replaced. And it’s not whether I like them or not. The World Bank, like the rest of the banking cartel operates using debt based currency which is unsustainable. THAT is the issue and why they need to be replaced. Also the fact they’re affecting political policy plays into how the banking cartels is taking control of various nations and their currency. So really it is relevent.

No, that´s YOUR issue, it´s not the issue of the discussion in which you just jumped in. As you like everyone can read above, the discussion was about adoption as a critical factor, not about the “need to be replaced”. I´m not going to discuss the issue you want to make up here, we both know where this leads to.

People adopt technology because they want to make some change or see some asset in it. If people see “ousting the banking cartel” as an asset and a change they wish to pursue then yes it will lead to greater user adoption. And since more and more people are becoming aware of the how money and the banks actually work then adopting SAFE because it competes with the banks becomes increasingly more likely. You posited that apps that protect user data and privacy or that challenge the banks have nothing in common and would not nessesarily increase the likelihood of SAFE being adopted. I’m saying that that is EXACTLY why SAFE will be adopted. Because people value their privacy, their freedom and they are becoming increasingly aware of the dangers of fiat currency.

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I really like this guy named @blindsite2k I like how he thinks :smiley:

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Dude, wtf.

And also, World Bank will be replaced by SafeCoin. That’s my point. I didn’t think I’d have to explicitly say it.

World Bank being replaced is part of the SafeCoin part of the network. Not farming. SAFE is alot of things at once, don’t forget that. There’s many sides to it.

But I appreciate your arguments here, honestly. They allow us to duke it out and all get deeper into the ideas here. So even if I don’t agree with you, your arguing makes us all stronger :slight_smile:

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Your point was simply adding names of services which you believe to be kind of old fashioned and claiming that they will be replaced by safe, which I refered megalomaniac due to your obvious blindness to critical adoption. Ironically you even asked me to argue why adoption will NOT take pace lol. #absurd

Why are you here, if you don’t believe in SAFE

You know, I am not a religious person - I don´t “believe” in SAFE blindly and fundamentally as you apparently do from what I can read in basically all of your posts. I am a researcher. I read the papers, I see the potential and I am looking forward to the release and what happens afterwards. In comparison to you I prefer not to blind out the obvious challenges SAFE has to go through same as all similar projects, because I don´t see how acting as if anyone knew the future helps the project. Quite the contrary my opinion is that predictions like yours affect the credibility of the project negatively.

Hopefully you understand that there are more reasons to be here than being a prophet and fan-boy of a product that doesn´t yet exist.

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Jeez, what a depressing person :stuck_out_tongue:

That’s an unnecessary comment. While SAFE is building up to a global, functioning network and even after, it is very necessary to have perspectives which are critical based on sound analysis and research. If you look at the RFCs in the github, you can see internal criticisms and debate about how certain functions will perform. This is healthy and will make the network stronger and safer. And once the network is global, it needs to be attacked and put through various stress tests if it will ultimately thrive.

While positive thinking is healthy and can help to reach end goals, total idealism without thinking critically is dangerous. It gives you a false sense of security. Humans make errors and building a product focused on security is an ongoing task. When SAFE reaches v1.0, the core developers are not done maintaining it. Hackers find exploits and systems need to be patched. Something unforeseen right now could totally wreak havoc on the network later on, so lets get as many minds thinking about what problems it could have now so we have better chances of anticipating the future.

Of course the other end of the spectrum where someone is totally critical of everything without adding to the discussion towards progress is also problematic but @Artiscience is not doing that.

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You’re totally right, and I apologize.

This guy just really gets my blood boiling.

But I take it back. I’m sorry.

Bill Hicks - Moon is smiling


universal forces shape - nature - knows no boundaries

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Thanks!

And not to get all psychologist on you but perhaps you want to look inside for why you’re affected in such a way. He’s just a human on the Internet who you disagree with, spare your stronger emotions for things that really deserve it. :smile:

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coming back to OP

@ioptio

A point you are discussing at about 33min+ is ways how SAFE can contribute to rewarding artists. This has been discussed several times already (even in the relatively short time that I´ve been on the forum), but I´d like to ask you about your opinion on the economical sustainability. I agree with you that copyrights are somewhat an artificial scarcity that is imposed on digital objects and that they are dealt with differently than material objects . However, wouldn´t you agree that creative work is also qualitatively different to work that follows protocols? Creating a piece of art takes a lot of time in advance and often much less in production. In some cases (the sculpture you were talking about does not count ;)) the work of a year can be disseminated in seconds. That is sometimes good and sometimes really bad, e.g. if you are totally broke but someone decided to copy your idea, market it and - being in a much better economical situation, banish you as the creator into economical and attentional Nirvana…so copyright is certainly artificial, but there are many things in the world that are artificial and still normal part of our lives, so I don´t see a general contradiction.

My personal concern is that there is a decent chance that artists won´t get more rewards than before, but find themself in an even more precarious situation where they have to market themselves as products.

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I guess I don’t really see the difference in labor for producing code and producing art. Can you explain what the difference to you is?

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Say person x likes creation of person y and person x wants to reward person y in current paradigm the only method person x has of rewarding person y involves middle men - this paradigm results in both person x and person y not having the transaction they both desired -

The SAFEnetwork and apps like n99 will allow direct access between content provider and user. Peer to peer replacing the dependency of current server based systems removing the central points of failure secured freedom privacy and secure access for everyone, where content providers can distribute personal private or public data the choice is yours. An autonomous network with no points of central control no more middle men no more gatekeepers the freedom to unleash human potential

n99 is a portal to the Safe Network providing channels for users to navigate, tools for content providers to create content, collaborate and customise their user interface. In return, n99 will provide access to surplus resources for use by the Safe Network and re-distribute recompense received in SafeCoin within n99

A common wealth of human knowledge where creative people can collaborate share ideas where creative people are rewarded for the creations they generate.

As an artist I look forward to the day when I have a node on n99 n99 : The Non­Technical White Paper – weadvancelivefree the ability to be rewarded for the art created - and with other potential apps eg Black apps https://3d8bf14b7f2bb73ad4b697e2ddfdfb783c7dcbd9-www.googledrive.com/host/0B8X-yQWyMNcIU21GYjVTYVZuTjA/blackapps/index.html enabling the artist wider access,

The SAFEnetwork the very essence of farming is an epoch moment there is a future in creating no more starving artists musicians authors comdians film makers the era of the creative is rising

following figures define the current paradigm and the reason so many creative people see the SAFEnetwork = unleashing human potential

99% of artists share 23% of global revenue >>
1% share 77% of total artist revenue

source FT . 2013

From mid 2013 to mid 2014 42% INCREASE in use of streaming services >>DECREASE in album sales >> 14.9%

source SoundScan

$12.359 << total domestic [USA] royalties Pandora paid out for AVICIIS “WAKE UP” as of November 2014
number of domestic [USA] streams for “WAKE UP” on Pandora
168 million

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No, I did not express myself well. I don´t see a general diffeence between producing code and art. Coding can be art as well, of course. To me there is a clear difference between creating new solutions and producing results based on existing solutions - or differently: you can write a protocol or use a protocol. I understand these terms very broadly. From my point of view you can be an artist by creating software, a song or a theory. What matters is innovation vs. convention.

This is, of course, an ideal distinction, since in a complex society we draw back on protocols of others all of the time, but still there are some people who strive to invent something that hasn´t been there before. There is a qualitative difference between the person who has the idea to build a machine and is capable to create a working prototype on one side and the person who buys a machine to produce certain goods (which can also be a skillful, yet repetitive task).

Point is, that products do not incorporate the intellectual work, but only the process of assemblage - that´s why reverse engineering usually pays out: you don´t have to cover the cost for the invention. It´s the intellectual work that often goes unpaid. Sometimes art can lead to no product at all. It often happens in research: you have a theory, try to prove it and in the end you fail. That´s still an intellectual product, but many people don´t see the need to pay for it. If you do the same thing 10times and only succeed the 10th time, then anyone will be interested in case 1-9. Negative results or failed experiments are usually not even published. People don´t value them, even though they are not only a natural part of the process, but also necessary for progress. Once you succeed and have results, they are easily taken and used by others. This is not necessarily a problem - as long as someone pays for the artist.

My personal experience is that this is often not the case. I grew up in a family and environment that was heavily influenced by art. A friend of my parents worked as an artisan and created wooden furniture. He had a lot of cool ideas, several were adopted by large furniture stores. They came (wothout stating who they are and what they intent to do), bought one of his pieces, reverse engineered them and then found ways to produce it with machinery at a budget price. By doing so they dump the market and leave him as well as other creatives in the sector with a very small market edge. Now people come and tell him: don´t complain but comply. Produce better products and offer them cheaper! However, that´s impossible since he has to cover the cost of innovation and has less ressources to compete.

Copy protection is flawed in many senses, because it would have been too expensive for this guy to register a patent, but there is no doubt that a proper copy protection would have protected him from being ripped off by big players who have the economical ressources to sell an idea that they didn´t have to pay for. I can see the same thing happening in large clothes store who buy from small artists all over the world and copy their work without crediting them. Every larger store like H&M or Zara works like that. It´s skimming the surplus of people who have a precarious life anyway. Copyright here IS certainly flawed, but that doesn´t mean that a protectionist policy is bad in general. Imho it just means that currently it serves the wrong people.

In digital environments copy+pasting has a much lower barrier. Many people who are involved in open source projects, such as writing Wikipedia articles, coding for Linux or writing RFC comments donate their work - that´s awesome. However, those who need and want to make a living rely on the ability to monetize the process of innovation or at least to recover them from selling a product.

In the end it´s not that I don´t see the alternatives. Crowd funding or crowd selling is certainly a good model to provide uncopyrighted content and still get funding. There are good examples such as the crowdfunding of Amanda Palmer’s last album, however I don´t see how this gets a feasible model for the 99% artist who do not have the fame of Amanda. Those often remain dependent on self-exploitation and handing out their hard work for free. We can see that in music business, but it´s also visible in other innovative sectors such as research. Currently I tend to believe that an optional fee request when accessing a file would lead to best results for both: artist and consumer.

This, just to add some thoughts…

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That´s not true. If people want to reward financially, they can use any kind of cryptocurrency already. They can also use cash. You can also reward culturally (but that´s not what you´re talking about, I guess).

I know the idea for n99, actually I had a comparable idea with powerparty. I agree that it is not server based, of course. It´s still a platform though that can produce dependencies as well. We shouldn´t underestimate that. At least it saves us from caprice and that´s a good thing.

The idea sounds good: “A common wealth of human knowledge where creative people can collaborate share ideas where creative people are rewarded for the creations they generate.” but as many other abstract good ideas (democracy, human rights, etc.) it will have to prove i real life whether it works out or not. i tend to believe that the solution that you propose (direct connection between artist and consumer) already exists on many occasions and is not used sufficiently. But as I said, I like the idea and I´m looking forward to see your progress on development.

I don´t know the exact sources you used. The one´s I know (german ones) clearly show a latent decrease of money flux into music business since the late 90s. Also, music is one thing, there are many other creative sectors (I mentioned some in my prior post) that are currently exploited due to a lack of copy protection (as I see it). I cannot help but to remain sceptical, particularly when there´s a plan to reward uploaders of files.

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Any method that allows people to support creative people directly is always a good thing :slight_smile: the point i was attempting to make was that in general there is many middle men, barriers between creative people and people who wish to support them.

seeds sown will either wither and die or flower and thrive

universal forces shape - nature - knows no boundaries

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