Forget Safecoin for end user of SafeNetwork. Think USD

Autonomi Network Token (incl (e)MAID)
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There are 3 reasons why anyone would use the Safe network.

  1. User has illegal or confidential data that he want to store or access (e,g pirated movies, child porn, sensitive document like bitcoin keys…)
  2. User is running an illegal business (silph road, activist website in a dictatoship state) on a decentralised safe website.
  3. User has legal data he wants to store online and the cost of storage on safe network is cheaper than anywhere else

So if you want the network to be successful, you need to go to potential customers by offering cheap and anonymous storage.

How did Skype grew so popular ?-> Phone calls were free day 1.
How will Safe will be popular day 1 ? storage for a decent quantity of GB should be free and then if user wants more, user will pay for it.
100 GB free ? why not ?
100 GB on Google Drive costs 1.99 per month. Let it be free on SAFE. Start charging 1 per TB.
and XXX$ per 1 safecoin equivalent amount of data (if 1SAFE = 1000$ due to deflationary pressure, let it be)

The end user will get used to the network and killer apps will be developed, as popularity grows.
Remember: we have plenty of space if each user commits a bit of space to the network and when users start using actively the network.

My point is, SAFE coin is the backbone. it is traded on crypto market and between famers, but should not really be shown to end users. This will solve the divisibility issue.

How do you do that ?
You could add another layer on top of farmers like Dash did with masternodes.
For instance, you would have farmers and “bankers”.

What do bankers do ?
They would reconcile the $ cost per TB with the value of the SAFE coin, by staking SAFE coin on one end and offering divisibility and granularity of storage to the end-user against USD.

Adding another layer makes the bridge between inflationary nature of data, and deflationary nature of Safe coin.
It help maintain service, granularity and utility for the network, while the value of safe coin grows.
What I am saying is the divisibility issue of the coin has to be handled by a loan mechanism, maybe blockchained based between banker masternodes. Bankers offer USD conversion to end user ( which is in fact SAFE cents).

It can be done in many ways

For instance Bankers could have a certain amount of MAID frozen ( for instance 100’000 MAID), commitment against which they take a small commission of the $ paid by end-user.

Or they could create a blockchain currency (SAFE cents) which would act like a fractional reserve in the banking system. This currency would be created like an ICO by sending an amount of MAID and burning it. it would represent 10% of all SAFE in existence (for instance)

Both of these ideas are easy to implement.

Maybe it is science fiction. After all I am quite new here surely have missed something.
I have read a lot of thread on divisibility issue because it obsess me and I think it could doom the network:
either SAFE is a utility and is useless and worthless (like the OMNI token) or SAFE is deflationary and costs a fortune and prevents mass adoption.
So why not add a layer to solve divisibility problem ?

Don’t be too harsh guys. Just trying to help with ideas :wink:

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Are you assuming divisibility can’t be solved? I mean, if it can, is there still a need for your, ahem, bankers? :wink:

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yes you are right, I assume it cannot be solved since the topic has been around for years and not been addressed properly.

But I am making many other points.
How do end users pay, in USD or SAFE coin ?
if SAFE, how does the user acquire them easily ?
Shouldn’t we give 100GB free to foster adoption…

so it’s not just self promotion lol :wink:

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also there’s infinity reasons for a SAFE uncensorable secure internet, and none of the ones I’m thinking of have anything to do with anything “illegal” !

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illegal activities will be a boon for the safe network in the early days. They will be the most enthusiastic users. It would be lying to ourselves to overlook it. And it is free ad.

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The way I see it, and why I love the whole SAFEnet concept is because you would be able to share some of your storage to earn/get credit (just forget about safecoins/bitcoins/maidsafecoin for a second, it can be seen just a credit note) to then be able to store your own data on the network.

I believe the idea to then make this credit a crypto-coin is that in addition to the average type of users you can attract people/organisations/companies who would be interested in sharing more storage and make it available for a reward, and attracting people/organisations/companies who are ok with paying if they want some network storage to suffice some specific needs, e.g. a TV company trying to expand their CDN coverage for video streaming at potentially lower rates than what current CDN companies offer now, or with better coverage in areas that CDN companies don’t even offer a good service :wink:

On the other hand, there is nothing stopping MaidSafe (the company) or any other organisation/people from offering some free credit to access the SAFEnet to promote it since I agree with you that providing free and easy access is the way to get mass adoption.

Lastly, as soon as you mention ‘bankers’, you will be loosing a lot of potential users, perhaps attracting some conservative ones though, but the world is changing as always does…you know…:slight_smile:

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Divisibility is solvable as I understand it (@neo had one solution which I think flies), but until MaidSafe get to looking at Safecoin the discussion remains community only and not RFC level.

Regarding offering free storage, you’ll find lots of discussion about this too. It is something we might do if it can be done without risking the network - but if every new account gets 100GB free, it creates a big problem - individuals register lots of accounts, and by reselling this becomes a business model, as well as an easy way to attack the network by filling all that free space with garbage.

Again, when we get to designing the economics (RFC stage) this may be looked at because, as you highlight, it will help adoption, but there are alternatives (discussed in the topics talking about offering free storage, and ways to help adoption). For example, providing free Safecoin for early adopters. Schemes to encourage people to send invites to friends, with a Safecoin they’ve earned etc.

As for acquiring Safecoin, the aim is that earning Safecoin should be easy for as many people as possible. There’s still a problem here though (again in those discussions), that earning your first Safecoin will take some time and that’s not good, so we may still want to have easy ways for people to obtain at least one free Safecoin, provided it can be done without mass fraud. So this would be like your free 100GB (or rather whatever a Safecoin will buy at the time).

There will be some who can’t earn Safecoin, but can maybe at least try it with a first free Safecoin and then move to buying on an exchange. There will be easy ways to buy Safecoin, because farmers will want to sell it!

So I’m still not sure if you are trying to solve a problem that we won’t have, or if your ideas can overcome these issues in a better way than what I’ve been expecting we’ll end up with. But as I say, these things aren’t decided, just kicked around so far. I think MaidSafe may come up with new ideas too when they begin to focus on this.

It’s good to have your input and such a different perspective on how to tackle these things.

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I wish that those fringe markets were adopting it later.
This network is bigger than that, and by being first associated with black markets may limit it’s perception on its capabilities.
There are big advantages for corporations and small business owners, and tackling these problems first would generate a good feedback for the general public to use it.

It is like a ceramic knife being promoted for cooking, and then getting some edge cases of misuse in crimes; compared to a knife mainly promoted for killing and bypassing metal detectors.
It is the same tool, and the way you frame it will affect how it is perceived the first time.

Of course it is inevitable the eventual illegal usage of it, but there are plenty of legally profitable applications for the enterprises, and we should be focusing to target those needs before the dark markets start to pop up.
You don’t want the first direct association to be “ah, the SafeNetwork? The super deep web?”, if that is the first thing that comes to the mind definitely no business will want to experiment with it.

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All Banks by legislation have the obligation to save documents and prove for a timespan of 10 years that this document has not been altered.
At the moment, saving those documents internally and signing it with a third party certificate is a popular way to do this.
With blockchains, publishing a hash of that documents or a collection of documents became another possible solution.
With SAFE, you could simply save the document on the network, and have an unalterable version of your document.

So if we solve the problem to store a document with a timestamp and prove it has not been altered in the mean time, you might have many banks interested in the network, giving it credit…

On a side note, apparently, businesses today pay up to 0.29$ to have their documents stamped on a blockchain (http://stampd.io/).

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One way to offer free storage is something I suggested year long ago - let the farmers decide how charitable they wish to be, which would form a pool of free storage. If it runs out, farmers would need to decide whether they wanted to offer more or not. This would keep a cap on the network filling up or having to define a magic number, etc.

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Before banks put documents on SAFE network, trust me, Assange will be awarded the peace nobel Prize. They are not tech savyy enough and will be distrustful for years. Private bank like HSBC in Geneva have an existential risk if data leak (like in the Falciani case)

Besides, you all assume that SAFE will get popular early at a corporate level, but in my opinion it will come years later. Fringe market will be first because they have a real need for anonymous storage, whatever the price. Corporate just want to pay cheaper, and they will wait for proven security before they go for it.

And then can you imagine banks putting data on a “super dark web”. It has reputational issues if media picks up the story.

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@SwissPrivateBanker I agree there are issues that may hold banks and other organisations back, but note that banks have been quick to pick up blockchain tech so you may be overly pessimistic because SAFEnetwork applications are much simpler to build and understand than blockchain apps and use.

However, I make no assumptions about banks or big business using SAFEnetwork early on. We’ll start with geeks and other niches (security, privacy, censorship related), and gradually pick up ordinary users.

At this stage - once it’s been road tested and people who’ve used it begin to recognise the potential and opportunities - I think there are several factors which could cause growth to ramp up:

  • cost - SAFE could be a free cloud for a lot of individuals, small enterprises, charities etc. Also kicking in for wave after wave of ever bigger organisations as time passes. And for those who can’t earn enough to pay for use it will still be cheap because: no shareholders, overheads, variable costs etc
  • earning potential - there’s a lot of people out there in the crypto community - and who know a bit about bitcoin but aren’t geeks - who are aware of the potential that bitcoin once offered, but no longer exists for individuals. When people realise almost anyone can earn Safecoin, and that Safecoin is a better bitcoin, take up could be huge, the best ever, everyone will be saying so :wink:
  • ease of use → productivity & cost savings - I think even we will be surprised at SAFEnetwork’s potential to beat all other platforms on usability (aka productivity), maintenance, security and other cost drivers because it not only simplifies usability of cloud-style applications, it also unifies them all under the same UI. For Windows, Mac, Linux, desktop and mobile: it will be the same UI, the same apps, and all your data available - regardless of the OS or device you are using. This could mean big increases in productivity, and massive reductions in IT infrastructure related costs. So this could be a major driver for adoption, HUGE, even better than the best ever… :wink:
  • innovation - with this new platform come new capabilities, and that will spawn innovation. It will create a new open landscape on which developers will imagine and build new things, and which companies will want to turn from opportunity into business. I think we should anticipate the excitement of bitcoin multiplied by a large factor for two reasons: the hurdle for developing on SAFEnetwork will be very low. Basic web skills will be enough. And because the apps built will have an exceptionally good UI without all the difficulties of bitcoin, which has only recently managed to create a wallet that someone without a PhD could use reliably.

EDIT: Another factor, which I add now because I’ve just realised how important it will be when it comes to which projects will survive and which will not:

  • vulnerability - the ability to survive government attacks, both technical (filtering, blocking etc) and otherwise. It seems to me that all these projects are getting an easy ride for now, but that governments are in general becoming more controlling and authoritarian, so SAFEnetwork may also have a big advantage in having minimised its reliance on vulnerable Internet services and easily blocked protocols.

Those are the things that spring to mind :slight_smile:

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Another “OH the sickos will be the users”

Ummm no there is NOT just 3 reasons why ANYONE would use the SAFE network. Why would it be, history doesn’t bear that out. Who uses encryption now. Well everyone that is who. You are using it now viewing this forum.

Already is cheap. Expect it to be as cheap as storing on a Hard Drive now. People (farmers) are supplying their spare resource which has a zero cost to them so the price will level out at a resonable price as farmers come on line.

Will be because the last few “release-candidate” networks will be using test-safecoin (zero cost) and the data stored will be free and remain as data-republish will be operational by then and earned test-safecoin will become safecoin. (well thats the plan anyhow)

beta through the release-candidate networks will do that nicely

But the point of SAFE coin is for the users, both farmers and storers see the SAFEcoin and can use it for transactions. To do differently is to change the fundamentals of SAFEcoin

The only issue with divisibility is what model we wish to use and the benefits/drawbacks of each model. But it can be solved very easy, but actually doesn’t need solving until the price is way too high and/or micro-transaction functionality is desired.

Un-needed complexity and why would we wish to copy DASH with a gamable system of masternodes and centralises profits to the already rich. Also we don’t want to duplicate the failings of the banking system or blockchains.

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Dollar (fiat) is a massive scam. Fiat doesn’t make any sense whatsoever. What does 1 dollar equal to? … crickets

Yeah exactly. It’s not backed up by gold or silver. It is backed by faith.

Cryptos will abolish the banking system.

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And I was thinking whose “dollar” would we use? USD for me is flaky, changing all the time in my country and as bad as BTC. If I buy something in USD then I check the current exchange rate before buying.

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Think of every android or ios app that charges fiat for tokens. no one has trouble navigating those types of transactions. if you wanted it to be seemless for end users then a 3rd part can be fiat onramp and sell safecoins, store them in an app for you until you redeem them for storage, or transfer elsewhere.

giving away introductory free bits leads to the spam issue we saw in the past weeks…

lastly i tend to ignore the illegal/confidential/illegal business side of things because the killer bit for safecoin in my opinion is:
one time setup fee web hosting for life… create a static website and buy some data storage with safecoin and it’ll live forever, no more paying hosting companies monthly. or pay a little more for mutable data and make a dynamic website and it’ll live forever.

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I would not say that banks are not tech savvy, they are just very conservative.

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Dollar (fiat) is a massive scam. Fiat doesn’t make any sense whatsoever. What does 1 dollar equal to? … crickets

Yeah exactly. It’s not backed up by gold or silver. It is backed by faith.

Dollars have more behind them than any crypto-currency. Why is a bitcoin valuable? Because we have faith that other people will want bitcoin in the future. If the bitcoin market starts doing dangerous things, what can we do? On the other hand if the dollar takes a nose dive, it’s a safe bet that Janet Yellen will be working to put out the fire immediately.

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I agree. There are certain amount dollars in each city / country. It is much harder to determine the value. Some cities may not value dollars as much as other cities.

I easily understand the supply and demand based on labor. An .15 ounce silver for gallon of milk. That is much easier to understand than three dollars for one gallon of milk. Three dollars of what?

I’ll give you three faiths for one gallon of milk.
Praise the god
Praise the lord
And lastly, I pray for you.

In safenet,

one safecoin exchanged for one safe_milkscoins(one gallon of milk.) Autonomously balanced based on calculated of milk flow rate, and demand. Oops, I just gave out a free idea. :wink:

Measuring bitcoin in dollars is absurd.

Bitcoins are valued based on two output; the value of the exchange itself, and electricity. Miners has to dig out the minerals, to feed the power plant to generate electricity. People buy electricity from the powerplant. The powerplant offers rate exchange. Bitcoin already has initial value right off the bat. With bitcoin, we know for certain how much it is valued. .01btc for 1kw. That is the proper design for bitcoin. It does not violate the Mises regression theorem.

Another case is bitcoin should be backed by gold.

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Micro-transaction should be desired from the get go, if it wasn’t crystal clear here is why:

https://letstalkbitcoin.com/blog/post/technology-and-choice-15-ryan-x-charles-working-to-give-you-yours

It would also help if every data uploaded on the SAFE Network is payable, so for instant you uploaded an image and I want to pay you like 1 SAFEcoin for that specific image, I should be able to do so by the image automatically incorporating your publickey/publicID. Same goes if I just want to pay you for your nice website, I should just be able to copy your url and pay. If I could pay safe://whyilovethesafenetwork.neo it could also give you direct feedback which page I like, you can go wild with this and just quote pay something that you said specifically on your webpage. If pubkeys are not woven into everything we’re uploading, we might as well stick to old ideas like emailing each other to ask for a pubkey to pay for a content.

To give an idea the demo app should almost work like this, but if somebody upload the same data as you they get another pubkey, because they logged in with different creds.
https://coreyphillips.github.io/

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