Feasibility of small setups in the real network

You know, from where I sit, vaguely occasionally glancing over at what you’re doing out of the corner of my eye from a distance, it looks like what you’ve done with your “beta rewards program” is to provoke a massive pile-on of Sybil nodes, demonstrate that the system doesn’t resist such attacks, and create a network so unlike what you’re supposedly trying to build that any other results you get out of it are going to be meaningless.

Some guy is complaining that he he can only get 150 “nodes” running on his Mikrotik router.

And that was 1000 percent predictable.

Everything seems to revolve not around actually getting a working network up, but around hyping this token you have… and unless you changed the plan while I wasn’t looking, the economics of that token are insane. As in “pay me now for future unrelated parties to provide storage in perpetuity” insane.

What are you actually trying to achieve here?

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I remember reading similar comments to yours when bitcoin was gaining some steam in 2012/13. Glad I didn’t listen to them then too.

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The network will be more secure and resilient with a large number of small nodes than a smaller number of large nodes.

Whatever the size of the nodes they want a large number of users to run them.

Inevitably people will try to run as many as they can get away with either to get more of the rewards on offer or for the fun of it. Which is no bad thing because the churn of records and difficulties for communication this causes is good as a constant stress test of the network.

If you are only dropping in occasionally you won’t be up to speed on all the discussions there have been about node size, the benefits of lots of people running nodes and constant mild flogging of the network being a good thing. You have a lot of reading to do! :wink:

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The network will be more secure and resilient with a large number of small nodes than a smaller number of large nodes.

“Resilient” in the sense of actually being able to deliver the service it’s supposed to deliver?

If you simultaneously asked each of the 150 nodes on somebody’s home router to store a single useful-sized chunk of data, most of them would fail. You cannae change the laws o’ physics.

It’s a bug if “rewards” are offered to nodes that can’t and won’t actually do what needs to be done.

Although I personally made quite a bit of money from having bought Bitcoin in 2012-2013, it’s still true that Bitcoin has been an abject failure for its original purpose. It’s not a currency; it’s a speculative vehicle. It creates absolutely no value for anything outside of itself. It protects nobody from any kind of abuse or even instability. In fact, it’s provided so little value, and PoW cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin are so environmentally destructive, that they should all simply be outlawed.

These 150 nodes are physically on one machine but each has a unique address in the network address space. With a network of 100k nodes, the chance of 1 file going to exactly those 150 nodes is less than 0.001% if I remember @neo’s calculations correctly.

edit: No, I don’t remember correctly, here are the calculations:


Privacy. Security. Freedom

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It doesn’t have to be one file. It can’t store chunks of 150 different files either. The bottom line is that, by pretending to be 150 “nodes”, a singe underlying hardware device is advertising the ability to store more aggregate data than it can actually store.

Bet your fun at a party

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In places like Venezuela, Bitcoin is saving lives. Their local currency has been destroyed and they need Bitcoin to trade for basic necessities. It is also useful to send value long distances. Nigeria and other African countries are embracing Bitcoin as well. In El Salvador Bitcoin is legal tender.

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The network is designed to handle this. Nodes that can’t deliver for whatever reason will be excluded and ultimately people will run a suitable number for their setup or not be part of the network.

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No it isn’t. Can you explain why this isn’t necessarily the case?

If not, you demonstrate a lack of a basic understanding of the network, making your critique quite worthless.

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OK, but wouldn’t you want to test that? And until it’s fully tested, wouldn’t you want to have some backstops?

I do understand that a new, bootstrapping network is different from an established network. In a new network, nothing has any history, so you can’t trust any one node over another, and there are no established nodes that will relatively reliably backstop a failure to deliver. You have limited options.

Nonetheless, if your beta network ends up full of bogus Sybil nodes, but you think your production network would not, then you still probably aren’t getting a very good test of nearly any part of the protocol. Maybe churn resistance… but that’s something you’d normally test in a way that you wouldn’t call a “beta”.

Giving out tokens, which are definitely meant to have negotiable value outside of the system, for beta nodes that can’t deliver service, will actively motivate people to participate in your test in a way that undermines its value as a test. It only makes sense if it’s for some unrelated reason that’s actually seen as more important than getting a good test.

That was my original point.

As for the issue more generally…

It’s nice that a nonperforming node will eventually be excluded, but if the person who set it up can collect any kind of reward before that happens, and nothing else limits the ability to keep doing that, then most of the nodes in your network at any given time are going to end up being bogus spam. No P2P network can survive if a really large fraction of the nodes in it are bad actors, and “bad actor” can very much mean just not being able to provide service.

In a production network, you don’t want a node to ever collect an actual reward without demonstrably doing what it’s supposed to do. Preferably you want to do that in a way where it can’t even build up a useful amount of “credit” in advance of actually delivering service, no matter how hard it tries.

Now, maybe the protocol is “eventually Sybil-resistant”, in the sense that it won’t end up handing out tokens exploitably once it’s been running for a while. Maybe any vulnerability only exists at startup. Even if so, you should still want the test network (and the bootstrap phase of the production network) to have some kind of immediate, interim resistance, however fallible. Otherwise you won’t get a useful test in your beta, and/or your production network may never make it to the point where the “real” Sybil resistance kicks in.

There are heuristics that have been shown to help a lot in real networks, against real threat actors (who tend to have limits that theoretical ones don’t). Even trivial things like blacklisting address space if too many nodes show up in it too quickly.

Not having any attempt at protection from the beginning, and apparently actively cheerleading for people to set up bogus nodes to get rewards, makes it look like there’s some motive here other than testing anything or getting a network running.

As a node you are entitled to 1 failed attempt and you get SHUNNED, look here how does this functionality work:


Privacy. Security. Freedom

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As a node you are entitled to 1 failed attempt and you get SHUNNED, look here how does this functionality work:

Do I get paid, even a tiny bit, before I get SHUNNED (or before I get SHUNNED by everybody)?

If I do, I can just collect my pittance, and pool it with the pittances of my millions of friends who do the same thing. That’s dangerous because it creates a motivation to attack the network to get paid.

What are these beta nodes being paid for? If it’s just for merely existing in the beta test phase, then you’re actually seeing a different version of essentially the same exploit. Instead of offering storage service or routing service or whatever, they’re being paid for offering “testing service”. But they can collect that payment while behaving in ways totally alien to what you’re actually trying to test.

By the way, on shunning and off topic with respect to my original comment: if my motivation to attack the network were that I wanted to shut it down, which isn’t really implausible, I’d start asking how much chaos I could cause by forcing honest nodes to keep state about having SHUNNED my instances, or maybe by finding some way to use that to induce pathological behavior because some had SHUNNED me and some hadn’t. Or maybe even tricking honest nodes into SHUNNING other honest nodes. Maybe the protocol resists things like that, but it’s not completely trivial to that kind of resistance right, not even the last kind.

You arrived giving me the impression of trolling and your responses are argumentative and opinionated rather than looking to understand and offer critique. For example, jumping in saying the network is open to, or rather full of sybilles rather than asking how it protects itself against such attacks. A red flag.

That may just be your style but I’m not going to engage further because to me it’s a waste of my time talking with you. So I’m blocking you to keep the noise level down.

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There are protection mechanisms built in… again, you’d know that if you asked some questions rather than pronouncing judgement while having little knowledge of the network.

You really are looking at all of this through jobbie tinted spectacles aren’t you?

Spaces for participants in the early beta are limited. There is a very clear incentive structure that rewards participants for earning… but, some have tried and tried, but due to issues beyond their control have failed to provide nodes that function properly. But, they’ve highlighted issues that normal users are facing that need to be addressed before the Beta can progress, so they will be rewarded for their efforts, even though they didn’t manage to get a node running well.

When issues are hammered out, and the network is launched, nobody will be getting rewards for nodes that don’t function.

I’m sure you could have thought of that, but you’re not interested in a view based on the reality of the situation, but only your biased and incorrect limited perspective.

Saying that, the network’s successful development does need reasonable critical voices to highlight real issues, e.g. attack vectors / weaknesses. So, if after doing some reading you see a real issue to highlight, you could add some value.

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jobbie tinted spectacles

I honestly don’t know what a “jobbie” is, so I don’t know what this means.

I’m sure you could have thought of that, but you’re not interested in a view based on the reality of the situation, but only your biased and incorrect limited perspective.

I started this by literally asking the question “What are you actually trying to achieve here?”.

You have provided a plausible answer to that question… but only after I got several other answers that either didn’t address the question at all or made no sense.

Yes, I could have thought of it. I could probably also have thought of a dozen other equally plausible answers.

For that matter, I asked after seeing “These “join” rewards to solve @JimCollinson 's need to get up to 1000 testers fast”. That reason would tend to indicate that somebody, at least, thought that the goal was actually to get a meaningful test of the network. And the word “beta” means testing under real-wold conditions.

Ach, dinna talk shite, man.

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You also started with:

and:

Did you really expect to not get some kick back from a community that’s working hard to help deliver a shared vision when you come in with such a condescending & negative tone?

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If your analysis followed the law of physics and follow mathematical principles then I might take you seriously rather than being a time waster and trying to destroy what you do not obviously understand.

The chance of a large machine running 150 nodes being asked to store the same chunk is

150 / (total-nodes) times 5. The times 5 is because there is 5 replicas. The network is like 60,000 nodes (tiny) at the moment so the actual chance of the one 150 node machine being asked to store the same chunk is
5*150/60,000 = 0.0125 which is 1 in 80. And that is with an extremely tiny network.

Also your claim is utterly made up because there is only 5 copies of one chunk.

Also asking a computer to store 150 chunks (max 1/2MB each) at the same time is what computers do day in and day out when copying files. Queuing is a thing, and been solved since the 1950’s

This is a different issue with easier calculation (see above)

The world solved this problem a long time ago with sequential queuing of packets and disk operations. Get up to date with physics, mathematics and multi-thread processing, all known about and solved in the 1950’s and 1960’s

Oh wait it is also being shown workable with the current network being tested LOL.

If you got paid then you did useful work even if you go bad later.


You are coming across as a troll as I am sure no one of your capabilities and experience cannot know these things.

And @DavidMc0 showed your trolling and lying.

Act like someone with real things to point out or be suspended due to acting like a time wasting troll that your posts show you to be. That is speaking truth, using truth to discuss with, and not answer with obviously false things so you can waste people’s time and lives with for your enjoyment.

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