Discussion on reducing the trust level requirements of the Price & Trading topic

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@jabba old friend, if you say “do what I want or else I leave”, rather than advocate for those changes and accept the process, you come across as manipulative and bullying

We all react when we feel strongly, so I hope that’s all this is, but it does lose my respect and willingness to listen.

I’m much more interested when people present evidence and reason. You’ve done that to an extent, but it has not been clear to me whether or not the change you support will have the effect you expect. I don’t think we can know TBH, whether letting more people post here will encourage or discourage newcomers.

BTW You are no doubt aware that meta discussions happen off the front page so as to keep the topics which visitors see relevant, and more interesting to new visitors. So complaining about this being moved to meta, after a reasonable time to get seen IMO, is also complaining about a policy designed to encourage joiners.

I have not argued either way on the proposition by @Josh and did not vote because I don’t know what the effect will be either way and I’m not even sure it matters that much. I don’t think the effect justifies the level of feeling you’ve shown here, so I think that may be about the more general issue of how this forum community is run.

I can’t help connect that with you suggesting the forum be shut down recently.

There have always been people who wanted to change how things are done here, and there are mechanisms to advocate for that, and it has always been open for somebody to put forward a better way to run this forum, and put it to the whole community in enough detail to vote on. But no matter how strongly they felt nobody has seriously attempted to do that. So we are where we are, and most people seem content with that most of the time. The forum has grown continually for over four years, now accelerating, and is the biggest resource both of past posts and responses to new enquiries that the whole project has.

I don’t see the big deal on this topic/OP though, one way or the other. I probably wasn’t a mod by the time it became restricted, so I don’t recall the issues @neo highlighted as reasons for that happening. But prior to that I do remember the kind of sh*t mods had to take from people that wanted no moderation (not yourself, in fact a very few) but they would have damaged this community and the project rather than see a moderated forum. For example I was deleting child porn from the forum at that time and one mod was physically threatened in response to what I thought was very reasonable question.

This project is a target for various reasons, and I’m confident that we would not have a successful forum at all without moderators. We have a process for moderating that works well IMO, having seen it from inside, and now for a couple of years outside too.

I’m sure there are ways it can be improved, but by definition, changes have to come by working through what is already in place, and that also requires that we have to accept the process and the outcomes.

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i follow maidsafe from begin 2017. I come to this topic 2 month ago. I think i have level 1. But not possible to give my point on every discussion…I think level 1 could be ok.

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I do believe the poll was made from a marketing perspective. Care to share your perspective @SarahPentland or @dugcampbell?

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Absolutely not what I said. What I’m saying is that this persistent refusal to listen to the community or canvas for their opinion is the reason I can’t justify putting any more energy into this place. I know you will not do what the community is asking for, I have seen it too many times now. Moving the discussion into meta is the final straw for me. I’ll be sticking to reddit only from now on. It’s not a threat, it’s a frustrated and unfortunate necessity because I don’t like wasting my time.

You lost my respect a long time ago when I realised we all needed to beg for your willingness and that of the mods, because you believe yours are the only opinions that matter, despite the fact this clique of mods represent neither maidsafe nor the community. Any discussion that disagrees with you is moved to meta to keep anyone from organising or canvassing for any kind of community consensus that conflicts with your own biases.

Since 2015 I’ve seen so many people leave the forum because of the modarchy’s stubbornness regarding its own inalienable right-to-power. The meta move pisses off everyone you do it to. You guys piss off users faster and more frequently than I’ve ever seen in any community.

Key forum contributors have been driven away, folks like team_2e16, tonda, safety1st, alkaffir, jm5 (a mod himself) now ken… god knows how many more I can’t recall off-hand, but certainly several more than that. My PMs have dozens of threads that hit the 500 post limit. All of that content wasted. Some it real gems and fascinating discussions, much of it between 3 or 4 of us ata time. All of it hugely valuable. All wasted from SAFE Netowrk’s pov, hidden away, no place for it on the forum and contributors who refuse to post here while there is no voice for them or direct business management.

You guys don’ just fail to leverage content by preventing people posting off-topic stuff visibly (god forbid), you actually create cliques and drive content off the forum and into PMs in huge quantities.

Anyway, there is no changing this. This has not been a community run forum since the reins were handed over and the separation between mod and community was created. Many many people have said it, we’ve all been censored and had our opinions removed from public view. We’ve all had to abandon the forum because of it. I wanted to rage-quit two years ago when poor tonda fell victim to (as he put it) “this self-righteous bullshi1t”.

It would be one thing if this was a private forum run by a private company, or a community forum run by a community, but it is not. This forum is run by a very small clique of like-minded people with no experience in marketing and no appreciation for the consequences of their decisions. As I said before, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. If you’re not qualified to make these decisions then make fewer and tread more carefully.

Anyway, no threats here. This is the last post I’ll be making on this forum. I’ll be on reddit and twitter from now on where my time is not being wasted shouting down a well.

Are you kidding me???

Poll in meta, 6 votes, the 5 mods who read meta and the one angry guy at a time who’s in there moaning? Yeah, good one :rofl:

This kind of politics is utterly revolting. It makes my flesh crawl. You guys are not maidsafe, you should not be deciding anything without full consensus from the community first. You are making mistakes, you are hurting the community and SAFE with those mistakes, you are not accountable for them and you constantly cover up any malcontent by sweeping it in here.

Oh well, it feels good to say this and mean it. I don’t even care how you change or what you do, it’s not a threat, I am just done with this particular portal from now on. I’ll still bleed SAFE, but not on here.

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^^^ second that ^^^ couldn’t of said it better myself. Bravo!

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At the time of creating the poll I had just about woke up and had not yet drank my coffee it was off the bat and simply to gauge the opinion of others on a matter that left me conflicted.

I reiterate one final time that the thought process has zero to do with pumping MAID and everything to do with better engaging a wider audience.

An opinion poll more than a call for change, at that moment.

The results from the poll show however that the vast majority of level 2 members who participated wish to lower the restriction. I advocate level 1 and believe 2 is excessive.

If @neo believes the poll biased or incomplete then it absolutely needs to be repeated in a fair, open and visiable way.
If the majority of this community feel it necessary and that appears to be the preliminary result I will be very disappointed if its all swept under the rug.
I agree with @Jabba that being moved here is annoying and in my opinion way more biased than the poll.

All I can say is please allow the community to make this decision if the mods override the popular vote this is definitely not the SAFE community I want to be part of.

Perhaps somebody from @maidsafe @nicklambert @dirvine cares to voice an opinion.

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For what its worth the poll is still open and at the top of this topic.

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Well it’s misleading to say the least, and factually incorrect all over the place.

For one thing, Jabba is talking to me as if I’m a mod or have power over the moderation, or this forum. Any power I have is just respect or otherwise from others in this community. I have no more power than he does.

He feels he’s not going to get his way, and he doesn’t like it. The reality is that the mods have said they are discussing the issue internally, and discussions are continuing here between all of us.

Jabba’s response to my post confirms that his reaction is not just about the issue in the OP, but that he would like the forum moderation process to be changed substantially (or the forum closed down). But as I said, nobody has yet provided a detailed enough proposal that we could get the community to evaluate and discuss, and get to a finalised state for a vote. That’s a lot of work I know, but how else can such a big change come about? Until somebody is willing to do that, and the forum continues to be the biggest and best community resource we have, I don’t see why it should be run to satisfy a small number of critical voices.

Let’s not forget how often we hear from new arrivals how much they like this forum and the community they find here, and that’s a credit to everyone, including the moderators.

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Hi @jm5 - I’m not 100% but I don’t think that the Trust level requirements were imposed from a marketing perspective (although I can see why that might have been a consideration earlier on if there were a deluge of low quality posts that made conversation impossible). To be honest, I’ve not spent much time (any) in this topic at all over the years so it’s just my guess that the rules were put in place as an attempt to keep the quality of posts up. Whether this is still required however isn’t something that I personally have a strong view on to be honest FWIW.

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You are the founding father of the clique and represent the same centralised group as the team of supporters you enlisted. Whether or not you are technically a mod right now is irrelevant, you were when tonda quit, you were when jm5 quit and alkaffir. You created the dynasty and chose those who shared your ideology to fill the power vacuum MaidSafe left in your hands. Although with the best of intentions, you did not walk the right path imho. In fact, you ran the wrong way.

It can’t if you move all discussion out of public view. There is no way to start any public discission because it is off-topic or meta. That is quite clearly and obviously a HUGE part of the problem.

This is more insane thought processes and faulty logic. Why do you think you are qualified to judge (or the mods) what is more relevant and interesting for visitors?! Do you not think visitors would be the best to ask this question to? Most of the stuff you qualify as off-topic I would class as ‘gold’. Every forum is made of the same thing, CONTENT. That’s it. Pure and simple. Content creators themselves and the content they create are the most vital things to focus on to grow the ‘community’. You think it makes it better and more fun when you move interesting posts un-related to MaidSafe off the front page so no one sees them? I say you don’t understand community building if that’s your attitude. The ‘lounge’ activity and general discussions need to be visible, even if they aren’t directly about MaidSafe. Well they do if you want more community engagement and activity anyway.

? That was an off the cuff suggestion in response to a discussion to see if there was any possibility of getting reddit to really grow and start building a more accessible community quickly? Obv it is a fair suggestion with that being the goal/context. Your impression of it speaks volumes to me about your train of thought and priorities though - paranoid and defensive instead of proactive and creative. Closing this forum was just a spit-ball as a suggestion for a way to force reddit to grow. It had nothing to do with this issue. I’ve hated the politics here for years, why would I suddenly bring up closing it on that post because of the management?

And let’s not forget the rule of marketing, for every one person that complains about something there were another 50 who felt the same way but simply left without sharing their thoughts. How many dozens have complained and left publicly because of this now? You don’t get this elsewhere. Why not? Because they are either managed by the business interest themselves, or if they claim to be ‘community run’ then they actually pay some attention to what that means and attempt to involve the community when they make decisions.

Random readership should not be your focus, CONTENT and content creators should be your focus… imo. SAFE Network and its needs should be your focus. What helps SAFE? What’s the end game here? Is it in our advantage to have lots of people getting involved, or to make life nice and easy for the mods?

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Anyway, I have beaten my head against this brick wall for years now.

I don’t want to waste any more time here when I could be achieving more with my content elsewhere.

I see it requires a mod to delete/close an account. I don’t want to get drawn into this endless and pointless back and forth any more. If you are powerless and your opponent disagrees then it is very frustrating and utterly futile.

@neo, please can you close my account. You can leave all my posts and post history up, but I’d like the account closed so I’m not tempted to get drawn back in to the hamster wheel. Thank you

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Hi @dugcampbell. I should have put the thread into perspective for you.

I don’t think so either but the recent opinion poll was:

I am somewhat confused by this as I feel community growth is a considerable part of marketing.

P.S. imo, I believe community growth is stifled in this forum because of the way mods run things, if I was Maidsafe I would take a long hard look at that. Its easy, just start with @happybeing:

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@Jabba since I came here, i’ve seen lots of your posts and I felt much respect for you and for your wise answers.
But at this point i’m disappointed from you, cause I think this is not the way to confront each other. This is one of many times I saw you angering with @happybeing and finishing building up together useless conclusions, just anger. Angering or quitting is not the way to resolve the problem. You’re solid for this community. If you believe in Safe you can’t quit. You have your rights opinions others have their own. Just confront and fight for your ideas. For every problem there’s a solution, just be patient to find it. In this case, you know @Josh made a poll. So let’s let it finish and then wait for Maidsafe’s operators’ opinion.
This doesn’t exclude the fact that everytime that someone wants to build constructive discussions with different opinions, you and @happybeing finish for arguing like babies :baby:t2:
So in conclusion, you can’t quit so easily, you are a respected member and as an adult, you must valorise your opinions in civil ways. @SarahPentland and others will say what they think about, just wait

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Again a very misleading picture IMO. What we see is a mostly small number of people with strong views on this issue who make the same points again and again, but don’t follow through (I’ll come back to this).

Yes, there will be others who agree with them who don’t voice their opinion, but fifty? I don’t think you have any idea how many, but I suggest that people are more likely to voice dissent than volunteer appreciation, yet we see that again and again from new people.

Jabba, I think you ignore the possibility that this community is more inclusive because of how well it is moderated, and that new people who arrive here may be more likely to stay because they realise that it is exceptional in a positive sense. I can’t prove that and you can’t prove the opposite, but it seems more credible to me based on what I hear from new people posting here. I don’t see how we can ever know for sure, so it is for now opinion.

As for the people who’ve left, well some of those you mention were banned and not lightly. You have to try pretty hard to be banned from this forum, and simple dissent or criticism has never been a reason, obviously. Only a handful have been banned in years (ignoring spam accounts).

And as for me having set it all up, @jm5 who we see agrees very much with you was one of the people I nominated early on. And he and other mods nominated additional mods. I think I’ve nominated maybe two out of a dozen or so during about one year - the entire time - I was a mod. I don’t recall anyone being rejected after being nominated, and I think the community also nominated some. Certainly I was. Mods were not vetted on their opinions about moderation or anything else, but usually stood out - almost nominating themselves really - by their presence, enthusiasm, and an ability to interact and debate without taking things personally. The last point is hard, but essential, and why it helps to have a team who give each other support and honest feedback, and who can recognise when it’s best for them to step away and let the others handle something. I think we have a great team in these respects, particularly when the same people keep making sometimes nasty accusations about them. They keep their heads and don’t IMO use their power without well considered reasons, and whenever possible giving people a chance to think, and to have their say too.

I don’t recall any particular mod appointment being questioned or objected to by the community at the time. I do recall people complaining about moderators or moderation when they were personally affected by a moderation action. That’s understandable, but what it shows me, again, is that the community as a whole (most people most of the time) are content or appreciative with how this forum is run, and by whom.

I accept that it is hard to get major change now. That’s the nature of things I’m afraid, once established, so long as they are working at least adequately - and I think we far exceed that here.

But that is not an argument for not trying if you feel so strongly, and believe you have a good case to put. And anyway, in the past the mods said that any serious proposals would get full exposure on the front page, so it is again misleading of you Jabba, to suggest that the mods or the system is set up in a way that makes it pointless you trying.

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I’m surprised and disappointed to see you say this. You were either the first or second mod I nominated - I think out of two in total that I nominated the whole year I was a moderator. And I was nominated by the community.

I seem to be getting ‘credit’ for things I didn’t do.

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Hey @jm5 - sorry, just to clarify: I totally agree that community growth is a significant part of marketing :slight_smile: My point here was more that I’ve not been involved in this topic discussion historically before the @ mention so I didn’t want to be seen as speaking for MaidSafe at this stage - only starting to look at this area now but I wanted to reply. Like everyone, my focus is on helping the community continue to grow and obviously one of the key reasons for the progress made to date is that everything’s been built on the time put in and the respect afforded by everyone who’s participated so far.

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You never should have nominated me. I never should have nominated other people. A front page poll should have been put to the community. As it should be now.

I do believe you are the only one that has ever been nominated by the community. Since then, all new moderators are nominated and approved within the moderator circle.

I had to do a Skype interview with @frabrunelle.

My mod appointment was questioned by other moderators because it was only approved by you and @frabrunelle.

You are the founding father, and you didn’t lay the correct groundwork. It is then questionable when you say

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This isn’t true. @David (not Irvine) was the founding father (before me), and this is your opinion of ‘correct’, not a fact.

I’m also pretty sure I am not the only mod nominated by the community but we can disagree on that.

I don’t know what you mean by your appointment being questioned. What I was saying is that I don’t recall any moderator being questioned as to their suitability at the time that person was appointed. Obviously some have questioned the process, and I’m fine with that.

So I’ve no recollection of your appointment being questioned. I was asked if I had any ideas, I suggested you and said why. I don’t recall who we had then, but Francis was admin, represented Maidsafe, and was given that responsibility by Maidsafe. It was his decision AFAIK, and the process was nothing to do with me beyond responding when he asked if I had any suggestions. Over time the whole process evolved but I have never had the authority to approve or veto an appointment, and I stepped down after about a year.

Since replying above I’ve remembered that I made another nomination so, probably three suggestions in total - although this person declined. But like you he’s also on the list of people Jabba gave as so unhappy with the forum moderation that they left.

So of the three people I can recall nominating, two had strong and different views about moderation than I did and are among the six people Jabba mentioned as having been driven away by me and the clique I’m supposed to have been orchestrating.

The idea that I was setting up some kind of authoritarian clique is a fantasy.

I have advocated my views on moderation, but the fact those views largely coincide with the policy of the forum is not just down to me and my renowned charisma :blush:, or some superhuman ability to impose my will on this community. :wink:

It has though made me an easy target for some people’s disaffection. I probably also get more praise than is due from those who like things the way they are, so I’m not complaining, but I want to correct misleading and inaccurate portrayals of my authority and influence.

While I was a mod we regularly consulted the community and had lengthy discussions about moderation - all those discussions are there for anyone to go back and read. If the community had wanted big change, I would have accepted it. If there was agreement reached on something concrete I would have advocated for it, or if I didn’t think it feasible would have stepped aside for others to implement. But we never got to that stage as I’ve pointed out many times.

Those who want change must get the community, not the mods, to agree to something concrete, and the excuses given for not having done so are not valid (as I’ve explained above).

Instead they tell the mods how bad they are, without agreement on exactly what is to be done. Different suggestions come from here and there, but not something concrete that has been agreed by the community. This effectively ignores the community while pretending to advocate on its behalf, and the excuse for this is the system and the mods not allowing them to be heard. Catch 22 for moderators.

If you want a substantial change, it is up to you to do the hard work of writing a serious proposal with enough detail for the community to understand and debate, and the mods will I believe be happy to put that topic on the front page as it deserves. Once it has been debated, revise if necessary and put it to a vote. I’ve said this several times in the past, but nobody has done this.

You could start by setting out a formalised version of the process I’ve just described. I think it would pass easily, and then use that process to tackle moderation and anything else you want.

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My dear, if one insists that after 12 years it isn’t a good time, might I suggest there may well never be?

I’m waiting for someone else to complain that they didn’t see this conversation (because it was moved) here…away from people who actually care about the singular topic of price.

What is the average age of the users here? One would think it were 12 to the degree that it seems people must bow and make obeisance before the school teacher. Closed systems die. That is a fact of life. If an idea cannot survive in the wild, it is unfit. Moreover, if you release an animal that was raised in the safety of captivity to the wild, it will die. We know this for a fact. It is through the process of striving and fighting that we learn to adapt, survive and thrive.

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I have to admit, I’ve been a fairly active member of the forum for 1.5 years but I think this is the first time I have ever visited Meta. Didn’t even know what it was for. The name, itself, is a turnoff for me. Don’t know what significance this is, I just thought I would throw it out there. I’m wondering how representative I am of the sub-2 year group in relation to these feelings.

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