Announcement: White Paper Walk-Through Session

:loudspeaker: Announcement: White Paper Walk-Through Session :loudspeaker:

Join @Bux and the team for an in-depth presentation showcasing the updated White Paper for Autonomi (formerly known as The SAFE Network). The session will delve into the thinking behind the revisions and highlight key content from the White Paper.

Following the presentation, we will dedicate time to addressing questions from attendees. These questions, captured during and after the session, will contribute to a formal response document, and may result in updates to the White Paper ahead of its publication later in the week.

Key Details:

  • Date & Time: Tuesday, December 3, 2024, at 8:30 PM GMT (London Time)
  • Location: Online via Zoom
  • Access: Open link, no registration or passcode required
  • Recording: The session will be recorded, and a write up will also follow with key points and any relevant Q&A

Invite Link:
:link: Join the session on Zoom

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An interesting and detailed presentation tonight, looking forward to reading the document and listening to the recording.

Great job, solid! :anchor:

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A recording of the walk through session if anyone wants to see it again or missed it

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How many tokens will be provided as a subsidy in the first year?


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Under the new plan the shares tokens will be unlocked gradually. Does this mean that the MaidSafe’s loan will also come back to us in parts, since the plan was to cover it from David shares or it will come from the Foundation, which becomes the owner of the debtor?


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@Bux Thanks for the walk-through of the whitepaper yesterday. Interesting to hear about some of the changes, and I’m looking forward to reading through the paper once it’s released. I would tag Jae, but don’t know his forum username.

My only concern relates to the emissions. Without the whitepaper in hand, I don’t yet know how the emissions are planned to be distributed, but I’ll outline my concerns / ideas concisely.

A brief summary of my thinking could be: ‘It seems hugely wasteful to create tens/hundreds of millions of dollars worth of tokens for little economic benefit to the Autonomi ecosystem. Is it possible to use emissions in a way that creates far more value for everyone than the current proposal will?’.

More detailed thoughts and discussions were had in this thread:

Why it’s important
Token emissions will represent 39% of the token supply. If it’s still planned to release 10% of this in the first year & the rest at a reducing rate, that’s 58.5 million tokens in year one. If tokens were worth $1, that’s $58.5m of value, if tokens were $10, that’s $585m of value.

What happens with emissions is important because it’s likely to represent a lot of value, and I feel the current plan to distribute to node operators is a waste of this valuable resource.

The economic waste of emissions
My basic reasoning for emissions being economically wasteful is that node operators don’t need them; the incentives they need will come from the demand side of the market for resources. Emissions don’t solve any problems in Autonomi’s proposed market for resources.

Not only this, but distributing emissions to node operators won’t benefit them hugely; the emissions inflate the token supply while performing no value-adding economic function. This gives node operators more tokens, but reduces the value of their holdings of tokens they previously earned, and future emissions will reduce the future value of the tokens they are currently earning.

Redistribution
While wasteful, emissions aren’t useless; they provide a redistribution of the total ‘wealth’ of the network towards node operators over time.

I agree that a redistribution to favour ecosystem participants vs early token holders over time is a good thing.

But, are there ways of releasing this 39% of the supply that can do a lot more to add value to the network and ecosystem than the current proposal for distributing to nodes?

Ideas of how to create more value with emissions

Idea 1: Tweak emissions to only kick-in above a certain store cost threshold, so that it enhances the network’s responsiveness to demand increases only when the supply is lagging, and won’t interfere in the market for resources when supply is sufficient.

This would still not represent a big ‘value add’ to the ecosystem in return for the dilution, but would at least enhance market dynamics in some way.

More details on this idea here:

Idea 2: Keep emissions to node operators as planned, but instead of the emissions being plain network token (ANT), they would be provided as a locked ‘Ecosystem token’, which can be ‘unlocked’ to ANT only by ecosystem enhancing projects that have been approved by a foundation controlled smart contract, or a future decentralised way of achieving the same.

Node operators would participate in ‘crowd funding’ of projects that they think will add the most value to the ecosystem by directing their earned ‘Ecosystem tokens’ where they decide. For anyone who didn’t want to participate for any reason, an option could be selected to send the tokens directly to the foundation to allocate as they wish.

(To avoid any confusion; nodes would still receive payment from those uploading in Network Token as planned. Only the emissions would be in the ‘Ecosystem token’)

Here are some potential benefits of this concept;

  1. Emissions going to projects that are building on the network will add real economic value and utility. Tens or hundreds of millions of dollars worth of tokens boosting value-adding projects will likely grow the total value of the ecosystem far more than a dilution that will redistribute, but not create value. And it’d be ‘free’!
  2. By adding value to the ecosystem, these emissions should boost the value of node operator’s past earnings rather than diluting them, as currently proposed emissions would.
  3. Node operators could potentially be rewarded by projects they donate to with any utility / other project tokens that could end up being worth more to them vs receiving more ANT with no corresponding value-add.
  4. Node operators gain more ownership of the ecosystem vs just earning ANT. They can help direct the future of the network by allocating their ‘ecosystem tokens’ toward projects they think will add the most value… like a governance token of sorts.

The above is just a concept of how the massive value represented by emissions could be directed to achieve a lot for the Autonomi ecosystem at the same time as providing the desired redistribution.

To not utilise this huge resource for greater benefit seems like a monumental waste.

The only reasons I could see for not doing more with emissions are A) if it’s not possible to do anything more productive with them, or B) distributing them to node operators as planned is hugely productive in a way I have missed.

It’d be great to hear if anyone else has ideas of how the emissions could be used to add more value than the current proposal would, or hear why people think it will add significant value as-is.

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Grabbed this! Thanks David :pray: (and White Paper will shine a light also I would think/hope!)

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naive thought … do we think there would be value in the autonomi client / official api reporting back to nodes that do respond slower than others that they are “slowing down the network” ?

ofc this is not a real metric … but it could help node operators to see if their nodes are healthy or over-provisioned in some way (bandwidth, disk IO, cpu) … so far we just have a kill switch for cpu … and as a node runner estimating if a system is over provisioned or not is not trivial …

aaaand … since it’s no longer the cheapest node that gets paid; do we consider excluding the slowest node in the payment-receiver-selection process to give a motivation to not slow down the network?

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@DavidMc0, and I quote:

“Yeah I think this all makes sense.” (which is why we have already decreased the emissions amount significantly).

You should see your thoughts reflected in the write up - as we will look to prevent over supply of tokens in the WP.

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Thanks Bux. It seems great steps have been taken to prevent oversupply given the reduction to 1.5bn tokens.

In case you missed it (and apologies if you did’t), could I ask you to briefly consider the concept explored as ‘idea 2’ in my comment above? While I know it’s late in the day, if something like that is possible & has the potential to ‘weaponise’ emissions to add serious value to the Autonomi ecosystem, it could be a good move :slight_smile:

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I think it is by far the best possible proposal for token issuance, not only does it not dilute the value of the token but it revalues ​​the entire ecosystem, a win-win. I hope they consider it seriously @bux @dirvine @rusty.spork @JimCollinson

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Has there been a successful project implementing something like this? I can think of 1-2 unsuccessful ones with similar attempts and dozens of successful bets on node runners.


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… I wouldn’t run nodes then… It would be a double bet… First that the token value doesn’t go to zero and 2nd the chosen project to invest in… And if there’s only crappy projects to invest in what should I do then with the coin? They wouldn’t have value to me…

Non-estimatable risk involved… I know how to run nodes pretty well but don’t feel like the most sophisticated investor on this planet…

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nodes would continue to earn revenue from user uploads,

the tokens that are subsidized would be staked in the projects you choose, at the end of the staking your tokens would be returned to you plus the project tokens. isn’t that how staking works? your subsidized tokens remain yours after some time, you don’t lose them and along the way you contribute to growing the network.

Maybe I’m just not knowledgeable enough to understand the proposal… But for sure my parents will already have a hard time getting nodes running as it is - I would assume that subsidies are more than the earned token amount in the first year(s) to attract data and use cases (basically free storage is a way to support projects to build on the network too)

Adding a layer on top and telling them they need to select projects and send those intermediate tokens there to eventually get them returned as other coin with value…

Anyway - I think Dimitar has a pretty good argument here:

I’m pretty sure this idea is not (globally) new and therefore it would probably make sense to research if and how it was successfully deployed… No need to repeat great concepts that happened to fail many times in the past

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Interesting persepctive. To me it seems drastic to consider not running nodes purely because of a ‘bonus’, even if the bonus was of no interest to you… but you may not be the only one who would feel like that.

There would be no risk involved - you’d still be paid the market rate in ANT. You could ignore the ‘Ecosystem tokens’, save them until you see a project you consider worth investing in, or send them to someone who you feel would appreciate them.

…then the network is doomed :smile: Surely you could think of some projects worth developing on Autonomi?

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I invested in no Blockchain project out there so far because they all look fundamentally broken to me…
(which might explain why I’m still a poor guy xD )

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The issue with this is that the ‘extra’ tokens dilute their own supply & therefore value, meaning it wouldn’t be a very effective subsidy.

No worries if you don’t see the economic benefits of it… seeing your response to the proposal is interesting. I do feel that it could probably be presented in a way that would not put-off people like you, and it could still drive huge value into projects developing for Autonomi.

Of course researching if others have tried similar would be prudent, but given the uniqueness of Autonomi, you may not be able to fund any examples that provide a lot of insight to whether this proposal could work well. Feel free to share if you find any.

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:wink: I hardly sleep enough anyway - sorry but won’t do research on this :wink:

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I expect with a little research you could also find quite a few unsuccessful node-running projects too :laughing:

I’m not aware of anything quite like this proposal, but let me know if you find anything. However, it’s really how it could work in the specific context of Autonomi and the ecosystem that I think will make this add real value, so comparisons are likely to be of limited value.

Governance tokens are a fairly close analogy in some ways, as holders can use them to direct elements of the future direction of the project they relate to, as would be the case with ‘Ecosystem tokens’, but rather than voting on proposals by core devs, the tokens would effectively be used to vote on funding projects / dev teams to develop features / apps etc that are desired.

A whole bunch of defi tokens are primarily governance tokens, e.g. Uni, Aave, Maker, Curve etc etc…all very successful. Tezos is doing OK with governance features… I doubt something like a governance token will generally make or break a project, but there are many times they have added value.

In what way do you see Hydra as relevant as a comparison? It is a less successful L1 that has some governance functionality, but it doesn’t seem closely analogous to me.

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