I don’t have any doubt that there will be a lot of swapping in and out of Bitcoin, dollars, and almost any other currencies. I just don’t think it will be happening through regular exchanges to any great degree, at least not at first. The only concentrations of ownership of safecoin early on will be crowdsale participants. The rest of the safecoin created will be in bits and bobs by all users, all over the world. It’s a very different scene than anything that’s come before, I think.
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And that is my thoughts. When your too different too early you risk being almost too edgy which is not always a good thing. Time will tell. My bet is SC has too much stacked against it to really take off and become a game changer in the hearts and minds of the main stream. Structuring it in a way where it accepts BTC and USD in exchange for SC tokens kills two birds with one stone which takes some of those hurdles away.
Now there’s a good jumping off point.
At the moment, SC does not exist, so we have to frame our conversation at the point where it does exist - once the network’s up and running.
There are three things that you can do with SC:
- Earn it
- Receive it
- Spend it
The modus operandi of the network is that the network rewards those who contribute to the network, and assesses fees for utilizing the network. SC in a way (and I think this is a @dirvine quote) is the “oil that lubricates the flow of the SAFE Network”.
It is possible, but not very feasible, to use the network without spending any SC. That means that you can browse and retrieve public and shared information without having to spend anything! However, whenever you PUT any data onto the network that requires payment to the network. Think about saving your config options for a site, or uploading a video for storage. That all requires SC - while sticking to only accessing data does not.
So does one need SC to use the network? No. And above all this should always be the case. SAFE stands for “Secure Access For Everyone” (as I’m sure you’re aware) and not everyone is going to have the funds to use on the SAFE Network. But what if they want to have some SC to spend?
Well, the intended way to get SC from the network is to provide a service to the Network. That comes one of two ways:
- Uploading a (hopefully popular) APP onto the SAFE Network, and being rewarded as the users use that APP
- Providing storage to the network by way of farming.
As you can see with both of these examples, the SC never leaves the network. Also, another thing to keep in mind is that the SC is being issued by the network itself, not by any one or group of individuals.
This poses a problem in that the currency isn’t really a currency at all. It’s earned for providing resources (Proof of Resource) to the network. Furthermore, it can’t be taken outside of the SAFE Network. There’s no cold storage or external wallet that the SC can be transferred to. That ability is facilitated by a blockchain, which SC doesn’t rely on.
So how would one go about “buying” - instead of earning - SC?
On one hand, some could argue that the network itself could be paid to issue SC. Without going into detail on how much this would break the security and trust of the network, let’s just say this is impossible. The network pays out SC for value added to the Network. Neither USD nor BTC add any intrinsic value to the network. So having a direct “from-the-network” exchange would be unfeasible if not completely impossible. (see last paragraph of post)
On the other hand, one could “sell” their SC to another on the SAFE Network. However, that would require an exchange - and not in the crypto-community sense of the word. It would be an exchange - between one person and another OR between two people and an intermediary; it’s never just “you and the network”.
To flesh those two examples out, first of all, one can use the SAFE Network just like one would use the existing internet to create a third-party exchange, but I don’t think that’s what you’re looking for.
Otherwise, you would have to convince a user on the network to transfer their SC to you. Now whether that be by you providing a good or a service (talking about good ol’ capitalism here), or you transferring some other type of currency to them, that’s up to you. However, that’s still not just between you and the network, that’s involving a third party (the other user) to get you your SC.
Now at this point, you may be wondering, “Why are the odds stacked against me just buying some SC?”
Well, that’s actually by design. Like I said earlier, SC was meant to be the oil that lubricates the machine that is the SAFE Network. It does not act as a currency, because it is more than that (or “less than that” depending on your point of view).
The SC is not a separate entity from the network. I’ve heard it said that SC was designed after the network was. SC was an afterthought. It’s not all about the SC with these guys. They’re concerned about the network first.
Here’s where I stop rambling and actually try to give you an answer.
Since the goal is to get SC, and to get SC you have to add value to the Network, why don’t you put those BTC/USD to good use? Cloud services are getting cheaper by the day. There is plenty of opportunity for you to trade your other currency to some entity that gives you resources that you can contribute to the Network. Farm, farm away!
Now where that’s the easiest way to go about doing it, if you are finding out that this farming thing is kinda cool, you can use the remainder of the currency you have set aside for SC to get…say…an ARM device to connect to the Network, and a HDD/SSD to connect to it and start farming from the comfort of your own home.
Now I realize that this isn’t necessarily the same as buying SC. Will there be those who just want to buy and not mess with setting up their own farming rig? Of course. And that’s where third party exchanges come in handy. To reach critical mass I have no doubt whatsoever that there will be third party exchanges, and many of them at that.
But the bottom line is that if you’re not adding intrinsic value to the network, you won’t receive any SC from the network.
If you want to explore what a network that accepts BTC/USD for SC or a network that uses BTC/USD as the “oil” looks like I’d be happy to discuss that further. The end result though is a system that’s broken and untrustworthy.
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In Australia the tax man has the concept of a so called hobby for all those people carrying on an activity that earns some money and the activity is not part of their normal business. They did this to prevent everyone who has a hobby being able to claim back all sorts of expenses (% of electricity, phone, rent, etc) which in many cases exceeds the returns. To this end the tax man (last I looked it up) sets the figure for income over materials to be $10,000. The figure seems high, but once you include allowable incidental costs the taxable amount would be very small. The reason for this is to prevent a hobby earning 10 dollars and allowing the person to claim back say $5000 expenses and reduce their tax payable.
I will certainly be glad the day that SAFE exceeded $10,000 a year profits and I have to pay tax on it.
To answer the thread title, bitcoin is a ledger that people assign a value to. It is works well for its purpose, but for effective instantaneous transactions it does not work well at all. SAFEcoin allows near instantaneous transactions and no ledger.
Imagine wanting to PUT some data. You may have to wait 30 minutes for the transaction from bitcoin to resources to process, but by having SAFEcoin it happens in “Conroy’s” blink of an eye.
SAFEcoin allows network speed transactions and network speed PUT-payments & various rewards to occur. The network could not operate using this form of payment/incentives if bitcoin transactions were to be relied upon.
Look up the SAFEx application that is being written that plans to allow the exchanges you suggested.
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Getting into and out of safecoin will be as easy as getting into and out of any other cryptocurrency on Shapeshift.io and the many decentralized even autonomous exchanges that are now being developed. The first ever autonomous network with privacy and security as the default is coming soon, it is cutting edge on every level. It has a community of users waiting at the doors, like those camping out in front of a major retailer the morning before black Friday. Growing slowly has its advantages but I have real doubts that this will be one advantage the Safenetwork will experience.
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Good analysis overall, I think. There seems to be something here, though, to think about. Bitcoin exists only on the bitcoin network in a similar way to how safecoin only exists in the SAFE Network. When you exchange either of them, all you are trading is the ability to control that amount on the respective platform. Bitcoin only exists on the bitcoin ledger. You can make off line ways of storing the keys that control a specific ledger entry, but the currency itself is never other than there. Safecoin can be considered similarly. There is even a proposal in the Safecoin Whitepaper about “minting” safecoin into an open transaction, which would make an offline record that is the only key to completing the transaction and finishing the transfer on the network.
I recommend listening to #2 of the Safecrossroads Podcast. Daniel DaBek lays out how the networks would interface and exchanges could be handled. I was smarter after finishing that interview. 
It’s worth a listen.
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IMHO crypto currency has a bit of a learning curve to get over.
When thinking about this you have to step into the shoes of others. So while it may be easy for you, its a brand new concept for others.
I have friends and family members that got all excited about Bitcoin once they had heard about it, but once they found out they couldn’t just buy some bitcoins as easily as an eBay purchase they kind of felt overwhelmed and gave up, I ended up making all the transactions for them, showing them how to use it, store it etc. I ended up doing the same for them when they wanted to by other currencies, so if as you say it will be “just as easy” as any other crypto currency, well, respectfully I hope you are wrong. I dont need to explain that all of them are practically failed experiments except for Bitcoin so I’d absolutely hate it if SC was ‘just as easy’ as the others because the others are all epic failures and we can argue the merits of litecoin and ripple all day long but as it stands no one in the mainstream knows what a ripple is nor do they care. Moral of the story, its not that easy.
Everyone has dollars, and many people have bitcoins. If you leverage the masses with something that is truly simple meaning my 60 year old mother could figure out, that’s when you have something with uptake potential, other than that its just another good idea that wont be accepted because it has holes in it. And the way to do that is to introduce a safe network operated app (the vault?) that also acts like a marketing place only its perfect in every sense meaning peer to peer, no bullshit. How to do this? I have no idea and I dont pretend I know. But i’d bet my house that without a solution like this Maid Safe will be another failed experiment.
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You make good points. This revolution is not going to happen over night and it is likely that many of the elderly today will never use a cryptocurrency, at least not knowingly. But as adoption goes this all likely to happen faster than the adoption of the classic internet, which is pretty damn fast when looked at from a historical perspective. So lets not be disheartened if it takes five years for the Safenetwork to become a household name. If the potential that we see is fulfilled then it is only a matter of time before millions of people see the value of contributing to a private, secure and free internet that keeps on giving.
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I agree with almost everything you say here. But there is a very understandable assumption packaged in, which I think may not be evaluated properly.
Safecoin IS a cryptocurrency, but it very different in a number of ways, most especially in close tie to the full functioning of the whole network, which I think will surprisingly quickly rival the existing internet. We’ve also had Bitcoin to break the ice. That’s not chopped liver.
Why use the SAFE Network? Because it will be private, secure and free, and will have lots and lots of unique applications. You’ll be able to use it in parallel with the current internet and draw data from it, cued by safe links in the current web. It’s hard to envision yet, but the capabilities of the network will rock more and more as it matures. And it pays safecoin in exchange for doing what you are already doing anyway, and then some.
Why use safecoin? Because lots and lots of people will want more of it than they are able to generate by farming, and will pay you for it in cash, or in exchange for yard mowing, or babysitting, or eggs, or perhaps a b—job. Why? Because it’s there and a lot of people will value it, even if not everyone at first. Once the safecoin is afield, safecoin meetups will be a huge deal.
Safecoin’s properties and its tie to the SAFE Network are a unique combination which puts it in a whole different category than other currencies which have gone before. I’ll wager we see others of its class arise in the future, but then people will be asking “Why not user safecoin?” for the same reasons you’re asking the question about Bitcoin now. But by then, the answer will be easier to see: because it supports and entire ecosystem which generates its own tremendous value, and that value is sane and rights respecting.
Of course, we could be wrong. I think it will either work or it won’t. But if it doesn’t, SAFE Network 2 and safecoin 2 will. Because the concept is just too appealing.
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There are no assumptions on my part at all.
I know that Safecoin is different. But tell me that as a business or private user that you care?
Just because something is different it does not make it better and just because something is better it does not mean uptake is guaranteed.
.
This functionality is already ready to go as soon as the network functionality is put in place. SafeX.
And, no, there are no guarantees. We speak from enthusiasm and see as far and deeply as we can.
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Waiting patiently 
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I am glad to see this issue raised so elegantly.
By the way for one implementation that’s work in progress, you can take a look at
https://forum.autonomi.community/t/safe-exchange-safex/1690/48?u=janitor
I am curious how this delayed release part mentioned in that post will prevent double spends.
Related to you discussion about buying SC, I read it with a chuckle - the other day when I asked where is one going to get SC on day 1, if not at the former price of MAID (that is, potentially quite expensively), no one commented on that, just like here.
Farming as a way of earning the coin could delay adoption, as in order to earn some you first need to setup a vault, fill it up, and then play the “hit me” lottery, hoping that you get some requests, so we’re talking days if not weeks to the 1st SC…
He said activist. (There are statist activists, too!)
@optictopic makes claims how it’s going to be easy to get in and out of SC. How exactly?
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Some foresight please. Once there are exchanges that handle safecoin it’s going to be just as easy as any other crypto, if not easier. I’m sure the decentralized exchanges will eventually support wiring money via paypal or something similar and receiving safecoin in exchange in a decentralized way that can’t be regulated away.
But please don’t assume that it will pop up on day one, or that it needs to pop up on day one. Day one, nay, probably more like year one is very much early adopter phase and as such it can be more difficult to get into without the world collapsing.
Completely unfair? There’s a lot of info in that topic, it’s a good read with a lot of info about the difference between Bitcoin Mining and Safecoin Farming. It’s completely in line with this topic. You got a lot of answers than and now again. And I don’t really care if you come here often or not, I supplied you a good link with info but to you that seems unfair. Because you’re not technical, yeah right. You could also say, thanks for the info or something like that. But nope, just reply that I’m unfair. It’s you against the world isn’t it?
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It was stated above, but you ignore it anyway, that you cannot trade crypto currency with the SAFE network.
In other words, you must trade it with a person or bot (maybe via a delayed and semi-manual 2-3 BTC multisig procedure or something).
So I asked how is that supposed to work, because it is not very clear, and you repeat what I quoted before I asked my question (“once it’s possible, it will be easy”).
PayPal? Good lord. Have you heard that PP payments can be cancelled? Why would anyone send you SAFE for PP transfer?
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Applications with zero trust exchange algorithms, type Coinffeine, can be the solution.
True up to a point, but you seem to forget other ways of obtaining new currencies - it is the same problem faced by bitcoin and other crypto currencies after all, and you are a some time investor in various projects, so I’m sure you are aware of many ways this has been tackled in the past.
Many schemes were also discussed on the forum in some depth, around a year ago I would guess, to help with the initial distribution of Safecoin, to ease and speed adoption and awareness.
It is pretty obvious there is no easy perfect solution to this issue or someone would have done it already. On the other hand, I think that Safecoin is fertile ground for innovation here, and offers the best chance of finding new solutions to this problem. It has so many differences from bitcoin and other blockchain currencies, not just in terms of being non blockchain, but especially being part of an ecosystem that is backed by tangible value, and a platform for highly scalable services with next to no cost of deployment (beyond the cost of writing code).
Needless to say, it would though be brilliant if someone came up with a new and better idea, a concrete proposal, for how to improve early distribution for Safecoin and ease adoption of SAFENetwork.
Remember though, that SAFENetwork is in a much better position than most other crypto systems (including all proof of work earning schemes) because it will be so easy to farm Safecoin and use it, and will remain decentralised. To get bitcoin these days, buying it is the only option for the general public and that is still a big hurdle there, because for mainstream users the alternatives are much easier and work well enough already. In SAFENetwork, you will need Safecoin if you want to store data, and it will be easy, if a bit delayed, to obtain by providing resources to the network. IMO this makes mass adoption much easier than with bitcoin, which has been going years now and is still unable to appeal to the general public, even without considering the technical hurdles to bitcoin scaling up enough to support mainstream applications.
At this time we also have a number of tried and tested distribution/adoption strategies available: give aways, fountains, send coin to a friend, tipping methods - most suited to early stage of adoption. Sine of the ideas discussed on the forum for this were quite innovative and I think could be made very effective.
Just to add: many really great responses now in this thread, and a discussion well worth having IMO. 
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Oooooohhhh… Once again, people, please try to read and understand comments: just in this topic it was mentioned several times (and also elsewhere on this forum) - the issue that’s being discussed is not a lack of trustless bitcoin exchanges or techniques (those exist) but a lack of way to trustlessly represent SAFE tokens outside of the SAFE network.
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