Update 28 September, 2023

[JimCollinson]

@happybeing

I think what we call a wallet is in fact the public key that’s written on the box, and the private key is what can ‘open’ the box (ie move the contents to newly created boxes with other public keys written on them).

So the box does I believe contain the assets like a Safe, so

I don’t think it would be correct to imply that this thing contains an asset. It more represents an asset.

In the same way a bank note represents an amount of currency, or a title deed represents a property. Neither of these contain the asset.

With a container metaphors, such as folder, or wallet, or safe, it is implied that many things can be stored within, and it can be added to, and have things taken out. These things aren’t true in this case.

(Although yes, it can represent more or less than one SNT. Like a bank note can represent more than one unit of currency. I pointed this out to highlight that calling it something like a coin, or a token, might be awkward)

It also would be misleading to imply it can be locked and unlocked. Because that might imply it is normally in a locked state, and therefore ok to share it, or leave it accessible. This is not the case. Yes, I need the private key to spend it, but I could still have privacy issues if it is shared, and without the public key I lose the asset.

So, these things need to be kept secure somewhere… like I dunno… in a safe!

@TylerAbeoJordan

that they are bringing back the term ‘safe’ to represent a wallet.

It’s not to represent a wallet specifically no, but a more broadly useful container for any kind of data, including these financial ones.

To quote myself…

@JimCollinson

It all starts with a Safe on your local device.

Add any data to it and its encrypted, secure, and broken into chunks that can only be reassembled by you.

Want to take that data anywhere? Connect it to anything? Drop in some tokens, and what you add to that Safe will be permanently stored for on the Network. Once it’s on the Network, your files and app data will be accessible across a constellation of personal devices—without ceding control to corporate providers.

You can access all your data from any device, yet without any of your personal information ever touching the internet—it’s securely reassembled just for you.

Plus, you can earn tokens by contributing spare storage, or even code, and they’ll be dropped right in your Safe too. Boom!

This is the concept of a Safe. And it could act like a wallet too, that would simply be about the client surfacing the financial data (like the CashNotes) and allowing me to see a filtered view of that.

But the point this is a container that is acting like you describe @happybeing, and we don’t really need other classes of container to do that job I don’t think. You can nest them, have n of m, hold them locally, or on the network, give them addresses etc… very versatile.

[happybeing]

Asset seems a better term than Cash or Value, since it may we are told contain other things than SNT, in practice anything where you want to be able to reallocate ownership I guess.

[JimCollinson]

@happybeing

Asset seems a better term than Cash or Value

Yes, I’m starting to think that. It might be that we want to consider something like AssetNote etc

[joshuef]

@JimCollinson I get your point w/r/t containing things in the CashNote as is… I wonder if the encrypted state is perhaps more box-like? Ie, hidden, like something in a box. (I always felt the redemption portion of our terminology here to be a bit overly verbose).

Maybe a stretch.

I also don’t dislike Asset, fwiw. Cash can feel a bit too misleadingly physical, perhaps.

[happybeing]

Thanks Jim, very helpful again.

To clarify, in the case of SNT then, does the network hold the balance of a wallet/holder of SNT which was used to issue the Note, or does SNT only exist in the form of Notes?

I like this reminder of what a Safe is:

@JimCollinson

But the point this is a container that is acting like you describe @happybeing, and we don’t really need other classes of container to do that job I don’t think. You can nest them, have n of m, hold them locally, or on the network, give them addresses etc… very versatile.

To pieces are fitting together although it’s still hard to grasp the full picture, particularly in the area of SNT because it is unfamiliar to most of us I think.

Whoever updates the primer [cough] is going to have a challenge to make this easily understood!

[TylerAbeoJordan]

I’m still rather confused here.

What actions can be performed with this tech? That is what should inform us as to how it should be named.

If I store my tokens in a wallet, then why do I want to put them into this cashnote? Is it to transfer them? What’s the point of the action here?

[JimCollinson]

@happybeing

To pieces are fitting together although it’s still hard to grasp the full picture, particularly in the area of SNT because it is unfamiliar to most of us I think.

If there is one piece of the whole thing that I’d like people to be able to get their head into quickly, through the use of a physical metaphor, it’d be a Safe. A secure container, that I hold the key to.

After that, most else can be handled through a client UX.

Like in the case of SNT… it reads complex, but in reality, I’ll add these tokens to a safe, they will be stored there, accumulate there, I can send/recieve them, and I’ll know the balance within the Safe. The mechanics of Cash/AssetNotes and redemptions etc, won’t really matter too much.

The naming of this particular thing should be as accurate and instructive and concise as we can make it. But let’s not elevate it too much… like it’s some sort of sub-system, otherwise we might lose the elegance of other aspects of the whole.

[TylerAbeoJordan]

My impression thus far is that this is technically a tender contract. And the transfer of the private key is the completion of the contract.

[JimCollinson]

@TylerAbeoJordan

If I store my tokens in a wallet, then why do I want to put them into this cashnote? Is it to transfer them? What’s the point of the action here?

If you want to move some money from one bank account to another, you’d write a check, or have a cashier write a bankers draft. This is that bit of paper, and how it is formatted. That’s all really.

You might have a bunch of these items in your wallet, and you can add them up to tell you your balance, or you could maybe just sume them all up together and have just one check with the full amount.

Only you can spend them though, because only your know the private key.

But you wouldn’t want to just leave them lying around because then people would know more about your financial situation that you might want them to.

[joshuef]

@TylerAbeoJordan

What actions can be performed with this tech?

You can know that you have tokens available to a derived key of your MainSecretKey.

Those tokens are not in the note, their value is in the Spend stored on the network. But you need to know that you are able to sign a Spend for those same tokens. For that you need to know the derivation index, and the main public key that it is derived from.

That’s the info in the note.

[joshuef]

@TylerAbeoJordan

And the transfer of the private key is the completion of the contract.

No private keys are transferred.

[jlpell]

“Would anyone like a little dab of snt? No problem, just open the digital asset box I sent you.”

@TylerAbeoJordan

f I store my tokens in a wallet

Don’t you mean a safe or a vault? The digital asset boxes would get stored in your vault for safe keeping until you are ready to send them to someone else, no? @happybeing get’s the metaphor. kiss

[TylerAbeoJordan]

@joshuef

Those tokens are not in the note, their value is in the Spend stored on the network.

Okay … I’m only vaguely understanding this.

I suspect the metaphors/ analogies here need to get a fair bit more clear - or otherwise, just don’t bother with the finer points of this terminology – as UX probably isn’t going to seem any different than what we have with bitcoin or paypal for that matter; hence nobody but devs are going to care about any of these deeper terms.

[jlpell]

Uff, that doesn’t really feel fair. @jim is just trying to explain our collective thought process. We went around on this a fair bit.

My comment wasn’t intended to be unkind @joshuef @JimCollinson, but rather to spur debate and voice a frustration. I’ve found that most people on the forum never take what I say seriously unless colorful language is applied. It goes without saying how much appreciated your efforts are.

[Profess]

@JimCollinson

Asset we might want to consider tough, for sure…

Thought about the asset, but this suggestion was already there.

@JimCollinson

Yes, I’m starting to think that. It might be that we want to consider something like AssetNote etc

It looks like we have a problem defining what CashNote contains and what it does

[joshuef]

Current docs in the code, and full contents of the CashNote are defined here

maidsafe/safe_network/blob/main/sn_transfers/src/cashnotes/cashnote.rs#L20-L74

[VaCrunch]

Train
Boxcar
Metro
Depot
Fairing
Capsule
Cone

Sorry, grasping at straws here.

[TylerAbeoJordan]

That’s all well and good, but (and to reiterate my previous post) I think for broader understanding we need metaphors analogies to pre-existing financial tech in order for most to grasp this. Maybe most don’t need to and if so cool - but then no need to hash out the finer details so grandma can get it.