You would have to do what any start-up does and do an ROI and market study at the current price of safecoin and then do some speculating if you wanted to take more risk on, I would think. Perhaps this is off-topic though.
Building a mesh network is beyond the scope of what the Safe network offers. I am sure you could sell network bandwidth for Safecoin though.
I am sure ISPs or equivalent could sell bandwidth for Safecoin, but whether hosting a node on said connection would be cost effective or not is another question.
Things such as this are not prescribed.
If you wish to do it, these are questions you will have to find answer to.
Might be a great project but probably premature to consider just now.
Then why talk about SAFE Network like it’s supposed to be a decentralized Internet when it’s just Dropbox 2.0?
If it’s just a Dropbox then there isn’t anything special about it. Storj will be able to do what SAFE Network does.
On the other hand if it’s supposed to truly decentralize the Internet then it has to give incentive for construction of a profitable meshnet. Otherwise there is no way SAFE Network will decentralize the ISPs.
And this response leads me to believe Storj will overtake SAFE Network.
If SAFE Network isn’t thinking about bandwidth then it’s never going to scale.
Bandwidth, Internet access, all of that costs money. Someone has to provide Internet access. That someone should earn Safecoins because their resources are included in the diagrams which say storage, computation and bandwidth.
It shouldn’t be up to the farmers to figure this out. It should be part of the design so that farmers can just run the software or plug and play.
If someone provides access and the network can verify they are doing this then they should earn Safecoins as a farmer.
Come on. Farmers provide bandwidth to the network (along with storage and computation) in exchange for safecoin.
Farmers get this from whatever provider is best for them. If you want to compete with those providers and get safecoin in exchange, that’s fine, you can pursue that as business plan. But providing it directly to the network is the farmer’s job and part of what is being compensated.
Edit: please consider carefully before just firing back a retort. Looking over your responses it’s apparent that you really don’t understand something you should by this point, or maybe trolling. Not an accusation, it’s just starting to feel like it.
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I think you’re thinking or the SAFE Network protocol is flawed.
- Not all farmers with storage have CPUs.
- Not all farmers have with CPUs have Internet access.
- Not all farmers with any combination of resources has all three.
Suppose for example the storage nodes I place around a city don’t have Internet access. Instead you have to connect via bluetooth, radio or something else other than on the Internet?
Suppose the CPU nodes don’t have much storage or any storage beyond ram?
Suppose the access point or floating drone doesn’t have much storage and just offers connectivity?
I’m describing a network of nodes which can be highly specialized while you’re saying every node has to be a general purpose computer. I think this is flawed because the only way to scale it out is to have highly specialized nodes. Some nodes will be so specialized that they might be designed to only do one thing well and nothing else.
But every node has to be able to run at a profit so that it can reproduce, maintain, and the network can grow. So for example let me explain this:
If Safecoins pay all general purpose nodes then if bandwidth is scarce but storage isn’t then how much Safecoin should the bandwidth node get compared to the storage nodes? If they all get an equal amount then there is no incentive to expand and provide more bandwidth nodes even though it’s in the most demand.
Farmers are running a business. They need to be able to expand. If the nodes are autonomous then the nodes need to make a profit so that they can pay for expansion. In any case the network might require more bandwidth, more computation or more storage at different times and there has to be market mechanisms to signal the supply and demand.
In the OP of this thread they did not even mention bandwidth or computation as affecting the price of Safecoin. Bandwidth and computation are likely to be in much more demand than storage because it’s more costly to provide it to the network from the point of view of farmers. That means it has to be added to any speculation of the price of Safecoin.
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Such things might be connected to the SAFE network in some way, but they definitely are not going to be SAFE farmers.
You seem to be taking about some network that you’d like to think about, but what you’re saying doesn’t reflect what’s being built here.
Then SAFE Network will never scale to a billion users. In order to scale there must be incentive for nodes to provide the three categories of resources in the whitepaper. That would be storage, computation and bandwidth.
If a farmer is not given the incentive to provide computation and bandwidth then you cannot create a distributed global digital brain.
If the SAFE Network team isn’t thinking about this or doesn’t plan to do this then they can always add it to their plans or change their plans. Safecoins most be used as an incentive to scale SAFE Network because the security and performance benefits at much greater scales. A small SAFE Network will never be very useful.
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Do you know that storj is simply a front end for p2p data storage networks? They will be using maidsafe, permacoin, siacoin and possibly others for their storage. Maidsafe will most likely be the most cost effective hence the majority of their storage will probably come from the safe network.
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Don’t nodes which can handle more get requests, recieve more safecoin? This would mean a better bandwidth connection gets you more safecoins.
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I think you are wasting your time, i’ve been saying the same thing to Luckybit for quite some time now on various topics. The time spent posting would be better spent reading what Maidsafe is and how it works, rather than taking up dev time responding to these posts.
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And that is actually to their advantage. Storj actually doesn’t depend on SAFE Network functioning properly. Their risks are spread which shows they’ve done their strategic risk management.
Why don’t you explain how SAFE Network can scale? Explain why the economics only include gigs but Proof of Resource in the document talks about computation, bandwidth, etc?
So which is it? They both cannot logically be correct. Either those other resources are factors in the economic calculations or they are not.
The best answer so far. Now how would we factor it into the calculations?
And does that mean the SAFE Network only supports general purpose nodes (computers) and not specialized nodes such as drones?
I think the way to solve it is really simple. The nodes should be distinguished by type so that highly specialized nodes providing bandwidth can be recognized as some sort of bandwidth providing node. The bottleneck is going to be bandwidth not storage.
So when people wonder what the price of Safecoin could be they have to look at which kinds of nodes will be in the most demand and the supply of those nodes. Storage nodes will be in demand but no where near the demand of bandwidth nodes. If it’s based on some sort of GET request or something agnostic like this the network still needs a way to track how much bandwidth it has in the supply so that it can adjust the cost of Safecoin according to demand.
For example if the network only calculates on the basis of gigs that isn’t useful to me if I’m trying to find an Internet or mesh connection and I have the Safecoins to pay for it. I’m not thinking about just gigs if I’m farming but also how do I get those resources to my customers.
So it’s not enough as a farmer or as an economic analysis to only think of the price of Safecoin as being a matter of supply and demand of storage. It’s supply and demand of all the resources and my purpose for making these posts is to point out that these Price and Economic speculation posts are ignoring bandwidth in the price calculations when the bandwidth is going to be the major expense for farmers.
Bandwidth costs way more to supply than storage.
Yeah right…
D.Irvine
In terms of maidsafe integration I think the idea is to use maidsafe as a hard drive and sell that space, I doubt this part would be a good mechanism though and have told them, the maidsafe space will be free or extremely close to free, so it would be hard to get between people and their data and charge for that.
Sounds like they really did their homework and got their business model sussed…lol
They have. For the umpteenth time - Why don’t you do some reading prior to posting.
I share the same concern. It is very encouraging that as Nick Lambert mentioned MaidSafe is consulting with a Chinese firm for some possibly initial or standardized hardware, but its also left the impression that the basic unit may be a bit large or granular. If only it could run on a plug computer. Maybe that is not reality now but some day it will be. Right? And that’s the idea behind the collaboration?
The terms “business” and “profit” make me nervous because they might point in the direction of people becoming data centers. It may well be unavoidable but I’ve hoped it would be driven by bottom up and not go in the direction of succumbing to supplier needs. That in keeping with end users owning the data, software, content or having equivalent influence and control to the extent possible- that a plug model seems most compatible.
If the intent is to get rid of the server one can’t very well have a network of full-on servers as a precondition? Not even as Safe will piggy back initially on the system of centralized and decentralized servers in the current internet.
A person Gets data from the network. This happens via the MaidManager group through the DataManager group and eventually to the PmidManager group. The storing node (that is giving the data) takes the address of the data, the message ID and the address of it’s close nodes (the PmidManagers). It then hashes all of these into a mining request. The mining request is sent to the network to store a coin. If there is space in the safecoin address space (2^32) then the storing nodes there, (Transaction Managers) can check the hash is correct. They can check the address of the requestors close group and the message id of the Get request (this is intact and comes from the MaidManagers of the requesting node). This means there is a lot of checking a request is valid and is still valid (if any nodes change the request is dropped as a failure).
mining request == Hash(messageid + Get Request message + coin owner (pmid Node) + pmid Managers + Data Managers of the requested chunk)
This happens every X Get attempts and this X is calculated by an algorithm that slows or speeds up mining requests, based on network data stored and free space available. A hack attempt would be computationally infeasible and require an attack group possibly larger than the networks population.
In conclusion, a safecoin mine attempt is a secure PUT of a transferable digital asset. These rules can be applied in similar systems, but is possibly only required here. A very similar approach allows Builders to receive rewards, but at a rate of X/10.
http://maidsafe.net/SystemDocs/user_perspective/farmers.html
That explains how you can use SAFE Network to store and retrieve data in a distributed fashion. This is fine if everyone has an Internet connection otherwise it becomes nonsense. If I don’t have an Internet connection then how do I access SAFE Network?
SAFE Network should not require an Internet connection to access it is what I’m saying. It could exist in a mesh network and the same incentives that make it useful for paying for storage could apply for bandwidth if it’s designed with that in mind. If that is the case then the Price of Safecoin calculations are wrong because they don’t factor in bandwidth. You’re assuming ISPs will let you build the SAFE Network on top of their infrastructure and maybe they’ll make it hard.
How does this image apply? If I have Safecoins and the resource I want is bandwidth how exactly would I pay for that? Explain.
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no…
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The concern I have is that it might not be a wise idea to exclusively piggy back on traditional ISPs. I think we would need our own network of decentralized ISPs to provide Internet access. I do think if you’re a farmer eventually you’re going to be a data center. It’s unavoidable that after a certain amount of expansion that if SAFE Network scales then it could become that.
But the way to make it less likely is to decentralize every part of it. The farmers for example shouldn’t have to be sys admins. The nodes could be autonomous so that no human has to operate it at all anymore. For example if you have a network of solar powered air balloons which float around a city and provide broadband access to SAFE Network via a mesh net then no one has to own that ISP.
The ISP could be just a bunch of people buying these kits, setting their balloons to float, and then walk away from it. The nodes would earn Safecoins but could distribute the Safecoins to the people who want to maintain the system. The nodes would be a decentralized autonomous cooperative or decentralize autonomous networks where users would perhaps use it for free and the Safecoins would be used by the nodes themselves to offer smart contracts/smart bounties to users who watch over it.
There is actually a lot of ways to go about it but in the end the autonomous node route is the most distributed and free that I can think of.
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Why not just admit you can’t explain it? The image if it’s correct would imply that more than storage is what the network is requesting as a resource. If that is true then we have to price in all of the resources the network is willing to accept from farmers. Bandwidth costs more than storage.
I contacted David Irvine and others about the idea of even expanding SAFE Network to accept energy/electricity as a resource. If you don’t have electricity then you don’t have any kind of connection whether it be Internet, radio, etc.
It’s understandable that electricity is not included because with solar panels we could generate that but still if you’re a farmer if you’re building a node you should do it so that it is solar powered or uses renewable energy. In the future maybe there could be an app to allow people to sell electricity in exchange for Safecoins if we had a smart grid to allow it.
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