The App Layer

Don’t know if this can be discussed but the age old hurdle with exchanges was listing fees and high expenses for Maidsafe.

So what changed here?

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@AJ_MS is the guy to ask. From my perspective, moving forward, getting tests working. Going for launch and generally being presented as a big deal and separate from the masses is key.

We have to step out of shadows but differentiate big time, which is easy, we are very different. The proposition is differnt. A new Internet, not a storage solution, not a place to store file, but a new Internet layer.

I am desperate, now for the client API and letting folk see, with a new decentralised Internet we can do so much more and more cost efficiently than what has come before. This is why I don’t care about how many petabytes or why some massively large file can be uploaded and so on. SAFE is so much more and the story is now a reality in the making.

Letting exchanges see this and see it’s real, makes a huge difference. I think we all have been focussed on a very simple use case for a new internet (store and share). Whereas now we are moving quickly to the app layer where we will have

  • dns
  • comms
  • billions tps scape microtransactions
    and much more.

This all helps IMO

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A lot has changed now wit the Swiss foundation.

But we still focus on the far bigger goals than just MAID. It’s easy to get sucked into that being the thing. But it’s just the stepping stone, and an enabler of something way more profound.

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Bravo, yes please.
Speaking for myself I am somewhat worn out uploading/downloading the same old files now.

It is all we have done for so long that many observers likely think that is it the whole thing in a nutshell.

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The Swiss Foundation makes everything easier as Jim says. Also, we understood that when Bittrex closed we needed to ensure the community had a way to trade MAID. With Omni being less supported now that was why we focused on a listing for eMAID.

Also as @dirvine says, we are moving closer towards something huge. So its the right time for us to complete this work.

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Good to hear but I’m confused as is often the case. Not long ago you said the focus had moved, no DNS/browser and away from public data to storing private data, so MVP, with mounted CRDT storage, followed by Safe app.

I guess @JimCollinson is all over the strategy and in time we will all see it, but as a very long term follower I’m surprised that I have so little clarity now, even over MVP, but especially what follows, medium term direction and messaging etc.

Potential app developers will need this. We had it in the past but I think it’s missing now and is a barrier to most outside the community if they arrive and want to know what’s coming beyond the basics.

I can refer back to the fundamentals and be reassured about the long term goals, but I’d like a better understanding of the steps from here to there, particularly MVP and next steps.

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I think this confuses a lot of folk.

What SAFE is, to me, is the new Internet layer. On that apps will provide everything, dns, comms, music sharing, publishing etc.

At its core it provides a safe secure and private space for all of us.

If we imagine this as a foundation layer for a new Internet, but one with privacy at it’s heart then we are in a good place. It’s also one where there are no centralising influences required to make it work (unlike the existing internet/web).

From there then everything we know is possible and I believe the real power will be in what we can now achive that is well beyond what is possible today. By that I don’t mean just new tech, but new entrants, new app devs from anywhere in the planet without the expense of data centres and AWS/google hosting costs and so on.

To be clear, internal chats too

What maidsafe are producing is this new network, SAFE. To showcase it we are creating some private, privacy first ways to use it, but it’s much more powerful than that. Folk will create amazing things on it and they may take risks by providing a dns and public data sharing hub and so on. It’s quite easy to do so.

I think there will be many use cases and we will certainly provide some of them, but everyone has to weigh up what to offer and how. Nobody should get to decide on which DNS and nobody should control it. So there may be many and then one wins that is decentralised. Same with apps of all types

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Speaking for me too Josh. We do this cos we know we need to get it right, not cos I am desperate to show off my music collection or even expect that many will appreciate it.

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That’s for clarifying David.

I think what is confusing is not having a clear statement of where MVP stops (though I tried to summarise) and what MaidSafe are expecting or hoping to deliver following that. Especially when you go mentioning that Safe will have DNS or whatever.

Many of us here know that all these things could be built, and may bet on which+when, but we’re just guessing.

We don’t know, and developers will be less likely to take the risk off building X if they think MaidSafe have X covered (eg DNS), which is a reasonable assumption when you say it will be there (though wrong I assume).

A clear invitation to third parties might be helpful. Not a commitment that MaidSafe won’t ever do X, but maybe not for a year after launch, or no plans to etc.

I think DNS is a tricky one. MaidSafe have already demonstrated and proven that a global secure naming service can be done, so a secure, decentralised DNS itself is almost trivial but it won’t exist without some leadership, and I’m not sure leaving that to chance will be good for the network or users.

Without MaidSafe’s leadership, what will drive this is the app which implements some form of naming, and which others follow or not. So a browser and publishing app is an obvious one but not for the faint hearted. Many app services will benefit from secure ownership of names (wallets and any social service etc), but be much easier to deliver and may end up driving the process, in a potentially cart before horse way.

MaidSafe’s DNS was good because it anticipated use by any number of services, but that’s unlikely to be built by some random app developer who just needs something for their own app.

I expect this will create a lot of confusion for users. Many apps and services will live in their own isolated name space…just like now. :scream:

Maybe a halfway house would be for MaidSafe to publish a DNS standard, and/or some CLI apps to demonstrate creation of names and some trivial apps using them, to look up a file for example?

I remember how cool it was when we were creating a domain and website on the early testnets with two or three commands. It’s a shame we’ve lost that because it was a jaw dropping demo.

For the avoidance of doubt I’m not thinking of myself here but the wider Dev community. I have my hands full with vdash for now.

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You are doing gods work: the cyber god of sneaky hidden internet layers. I shout out all testers names to the heavens in exaltations!

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not sure this is true … just for sending coins in a test network e.g. using a DNS would be super-cool … and using the same DNS for sending Messages too would be awesome … yes there might be competing systems … but i am pretty sure people will not try to build their own ones - as long as there is a DNS that would fit their need

… i myself e.g. would love to implement a pet naming DNS when there is an API and it is easy to do with python … (which might result in easier token transfers because with shared Name Entries I might know the public address of Southside because I know you and you know him … so no need to share/search/copy-paste for cryptic addresses anymore)

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I think it might be, but to be clear we have no plans before launch. Of course things change, but for now DNS is a client side app really Possible a DNS pluggin aps can use and so on.

As soon as we move to a publishing platform several things can happen:

  • Folk see SAFE as just that
  • Others see child porn and think we are ciminals trying to subvert the law

And so on. Rather than the looong looong protracted meetings, discussions and debates I think it’s a good idea we run away from that right now, but don’t (cause we cant) disallow it from happening. Perhaps some Satoshi Nacamoto will conjure up something :smiley: :smiley:

As a new Internet backbone it seems prudent to offer some examples’ of some relatively modest apps and who knows, perhaps some large partnerships for some world class apps may happen to. However for the network to deliver on a new platform to build I think we may be in a good position.

It’s a good discussion though for sure.

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:dart:

Would a separate DNS project be something that [c|sh]ould be funded by the Foundation, perhaps with certain devs seconded from Maidsafe itself for a few months?

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Maybe the BGF can be used to encourage the initial building of these apps during beta once things settle down more, like the api etc

This would also allow guidance/oversight ensuring the initial basic apps/data structures are in place at launch.

DNS for instance is more data structure than app and as you say a standard. But things like SafeMail would be a good app/standard to be in place

Yep, example code snippets would seem to be a good logical way to go. And as I suggested above something for the BGF (funding wise)

Don’t forget the BGF which will be managed by the foundation but is a separate funding for external devs

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yes, thats what I meant. AIUI, this is just what the BGF was intended for and I’m itching to see this wonderful gesture from @BambooGarden put to good use ASAP :slight_smile:

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We need to take care of BGF funding, things that maidsafe already say from them may be politically or regulatory nightmares. BGF will not be seen as separate, and maidsafe would still get sucked into that.

The foundation helps but it’s quite scary reading what the bgf should fund. It’s helps with core dev for certain, but for apps that maidsafe runs away from (for whatever reason) having the bgf pay maidsafe to do them will make no difference to regulators etc.

So we all need to be careful with, of this is dangerous, then lets get the bfg to pay for it. I think we just need to take care and as we progress with the Swiss authorities we will know more of what’s possible.

However, maidsafe as a UK company is likely already a target, and we need to be squeaky clean. It’s not a cop out, but that kind of fight will do none of us any good at this time,

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I was never thinking of Maidsafe employees (or Maidsafe itself) doing anything funded by BGF, and any oversight is done on Maidsafe Dime not BGF

It was intended for paying others and this is what I meant
It was also intended to pay for things that aid the Safe Network and bringing it to launch and IIRC things that result in greater awareness of the network at launch

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I dont want a fight, I just want something that works like a DNS and some kind of directory structure.

@mods we are well off-topic here

just as well you havent heard most of my ideas then… can you share the wildest ones?

but seriously, what could some funds be used for now?

cos until we can get something better than this unstructured mess <— OK thats a bit harsh - sorry.

Starting to chunk "ollama-webui/" now.
Chunking 260 files...
⠁ [00:00:00] [----------------------------------------] 0/260                                                                                    Skipping file "ollama-webui/kubernetes/helm/.helmignore"/PathXorName("12728259c5914dff6a819828a3e9167f665929fb322182f48d57761dc9bdb917") as it could not be chunked: Chunks(EmptyFileProvided)
Files upload attempted previously, verifying 542 chunks
All files were already uploaded and verified
**************************************
*          Uploaded Files            *
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then its a hard slog for many who want to try and build stuff right now. I know this is bugging you too, sorry.

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I know what you mean Rob and understand you know the bgf well. No worries

That’s right. It was offered directly and we said it’s best used to encourage other devs as we move on. Right now the API is not good enough to do that, but that will be soon. We have had to use some for core dev and that’s paid of as well.

When the API is solid and the foundation is rocking then I think this will encourage a lot of dev very fast.

I have an additional plan there too which I think might get a lot of folk involved very quickly.

In any case that donation to getting SAFE up and running and successful is probably the most generous thing I have seen or ever will see in my life. Astounding and for sure we will make it work as efficiently as possible and not splatter gun it around any idea but try and make sure it creates a ton of value for the network going forward. Absolutely wonderful thing it is.

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If we have to ask then there’s nothing sticking out. I am in no hurry to deplete that fund on a whim :wink: Right now the progress is great and we are trying to concentrate on getting to Beta, it won’t help to stop and look for places to spend somebody elses cash :smiley:

If there are places we see can move the network forward, we won’t hesitate, but right now it’s 100% about moving forward fast.

A large part may go in hosting a crap ton of nodes in the early days to then pay back SNT to the fund and so on, but right now wiht no API to speak of and no pushing at the door by devs to create on the API there is not really much we can do. We could try and find ways to pay folk for hosting and so on, bu tthen say we pay you (in the UK) that’s income you have and hmrc and teh lads will want that from you. So then it’s another disaster to try and resolve.

Not trying to be difficult, but the ice we are on is not thick and we need to move fast to get out there and get this thing growing like crazy.

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