Hmm seems ambitious to commit to a demo, but I could take another look at that Rust Bitcoin library at least
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Not so much a request, but just trying to outline my thinking about where is useful to dive into if thereâs a want to move the topic forward. Answering as many of the unanswered Qs as possible.
Thereâs still various suggestions within this very thread about just how to go about redemption. In the end, making a token can be done. Has been done. but what it means and what weâd do with it is a bigger Q⌠And not one Iâve seen consensus on in this thread for example.
I think we need that nailed down, and that (to my mind), wont be a sole maidsafe decision. The communityâs input is valid and valued. So if we as a community can figure out if we want snapshot vs continual (for X time?) ability to redeem for eg. That helps a lot.
As you note, itâs things we need for final redemption step. But I wouldnât say no-one knows how things work. With AT2, and farming on the way, things are getting clarified at a reasonable pave, so as soon as we know we want a) the network preloaded in some fashion or b) a special network request for dispensation of funds or c) something else⌠well we can work out what we need to know then.
But I donât think we can know such SAFE detailâs without first figuring out how we want the transfer to happen as a community. (At least in a first iteration, eg⌠nothing has to be set in stone while weâre figuring this out eitherâŚ)
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Could be a bit of a chicken/egg problem. I do agree that the âconversationâ can and should concurrently continue on both tracks (I.e. explore community preferences for conversion mechanism + explore technical constraints and methods for conversion at the same time).
Hopefully, @drehbâs investigations will prove helpful. Is there anything youâd want to highlight for him to consider as he looks into the snapshot method?
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Unfortunately my question was not answered.
Without knowing the vision of how new users to SAFE are expected to purchase SAFEcoin, Iâm unable to help design a solution where the desires of now, also fulfill the needs of later, which would alleviate concern over distracting dev resources.
As I allude to and partially describe here, an automated BTC/OMNI/ERC-20 onramp to SAFEcoin built directly into SAFE seems useful, however thereâs no way of going further without knowing @dirvineâs vision. Perhaps itâs that the initial SAFEcoin from pre-token redemption is expected to be the only initial source until farmers are awarded and have SAFEcoin to sell?
IMHO the vision for how people will purchase SAFEcoin is the essential starting point, even for the discussion in this topic.
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All this below is contingent on not removing maidsafe from their current progress. I still feel that if people want to create alternative asset pools to trade then itâs up to them to do it and ensure conversion to SAFE is possible. Maidsafe has a plan (based on OMNI), I think that plan should be respected no matter how loose it may seem to be.
With that caveat out of the wayâŚ
If a snapshot is used for claiming SAFE then there must be a way to stop trading at that snapshot. With two centralized exchanges that is quite easy (just contact them beforehand). Add OTC trading into the mix it becomes harder. And if we add a DEX then there is no way to halt trading, so it rules out being able to use a snapshot.
If trading is not halted a scammer could claim their SAFE using the snapshot, then trade their MAID to a victim who cannot claim it for SAFE and can only use those MAID to further scam someone else. This is a very bad situation for everyone (even the initial scammer since they will devalue their claimed SAFE by damaging others perceptions).
This will happen anyhow to some degree since MAID can still be transferred after the snapshot via OTC trading. And there is no way to let every single person know they should no longer accept MAID since they risk not being included in the snapshot and losing their SAFE.
Is there a way to prevent omni assets (or erc20 assets) from being transferred after a certain block? I donât think there is, but that would be a secure way to do a snapshot, using the blockchain.
So this puts the snapshot in a pretty difficult basket if I understand it correctly. I prefer the snapshot idea but am not yet convinced itâs possible to do securely.
Burn is the remaining option, which involves a transaction so is not as desirable, but it seems secure if the owner of the burn address can be trusted to respond.
A third idea to consider is SAFE as an airdrop⌠easiest to explain with a contrasting example:
The original snapshot idea presumably involves a single wallet holding all the ico coins and when proof of ownership at the snapshot is given to that wallet owner, the owner transfers out of the single ico wallet to the requested destination. Similar to the burn option, users must be able to trust the owner of the ico wallet will do what they say they should.
In an airdrop SAFE, there is no single ico wallet. The snaphshot for the airdrop is is taken from omni, then safecoins are sent from the genesis wallet to every omni address in that snapshot. These SAFE can only be spent by the owners of the omni address. If the owner has lost their private keys for omniMAID then they also lose their airdropped SAFE. This needs some more complexity in the transaction logic of safecoin (complexity which will inevitibly be needed anyhow even without this airdrop). Instead of a transaction being valid only based on isValid(bls-signature) it could also be valid for isValid(omni-signature) and maybe also isValid(erc20-signature). It highlights the value of more complex ownership tests as per this dev forum topic. However an airdrop doesnât prevent scammers selling omnimaid after the airdrop to victims who cannot use that maid to get real safecoins. Just wanted to point out a third option that has not seemed to be raised yet.
A complexity with creating an erc20 pool of maidsafecoin is that omnimaid converted into erc20maid are not destroyed (maybe burned but not destroyed, there are always 452552412 omni maid). So the owner of the ico SAFE wallet must know which omnimaid to ignore because they are representing erc20 maid. I feel like thatâs beginning to get very messy.
The omni creation script didnât generate the intended 429496729 coins, it had an error in the process. Are we going to introduce this risk again using erc20?
To reiterate to my initial statement, letâs allow maidsafe to focus on the network. If trading volume is an issue then I encourage those who are experiencing the trading volume problems to take action and let maidsafe do what they need to as best and as focused as possible. I sympathize with the risk of not enough exchanges or trade volume, for the community and for maidsafe. I would love to see more exchanges and volume. But more than that I would love to see SAFE network launched.
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I think that at this stage we can cross out the ERC20 token. When there is a test network with vaults from home it will also not be too late to issue a ERC20 token and enable the millions and millions of people using the Ethereum ecosystem to join us 
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The omni core allows queries to extract all balances for addresses that have ever held MAID. That gives you the amounts and CLI could do the safecoin transfers from the coin account with the 450 million safecoin.
Then a simple script can receive the signed messages and process the transfer.
The conversion can be done with one machine receiving the signed messages and transferring the safecoin. It would be a machine that say the MaidSafe Foundation or Auditors employed to run.
And maybe we can have a burn address for erc20 so when the snapshot of omni is taken the erc20 people have to burn their erc20 and a record kept for future, a pseudo snapshot if you want. Burn erc20 and get safecoin.
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I think the real question is how are users expected to SELL their SAFE? The answer to that, I think, addresses most every other concern raised in this thread. It seems like a solid exchange is required. Until then, a real economy canât grow around the network, and no one with a significant amount of MAID (or ERC20) will want to trust the network. Once that exchange is tied in, an ERC20 token could be easily added to facilitate moving in and out of SAFE if MAID isnât suitable. But that exchange would likely necessarily include MAID, rendering the ERC20 less needed. The exchange would need to be partnered with Maidsafe to ensure 1:1 going from MAID to SAFE either with or without a transaction fee. Maybe a parallel process would still be employed to go 1:1 without the fee? I get nervous, though, about âstopping tradingâ of MAID when the tokens are to be converted to SAFE. This seems like an âall or noneâ path that screams risk.
If an erc20 contract can have a condition where any tx after a certain time is rejected, this could be a really good way to create a snapshot and a reason to transition to erc20 (ideally all omni maid to erc20). It would allow the snapshot to happen with an on-chain mechanism and would also halt all otc trading and exchange withdrawals at that same time. Could the halt time in the contract be decided later or does it have to be hardcoded from the start?
Could omni maid be used as a snapshot airdrop when creating the new erc20 coin? That would be quite an interesting play which could allow a pure erc20-to-safe transition and omni be ignored⌠This would only require a commitment from maidsafe to not use any omnimaid and only use erc20maid for claiming SAFE, which is basically the same as their current commitment just with a different token. Though this still has the problem of scammers trying to still sell omnimaid after the erc20 airdrop/snapshot.
But I donât know the details of how flexible ethereum contracts can be so I leave these as questions for smarter people. I can see there may be advantages to erc20 if it can be used to enforce a halt to all trading on-chain.
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Here I want to note that such an AirDrop cannot be made. What can be done is to take a snapshot of the addresses where there are omni MAID, this snapshot to be included in an ethereum smart contract and everyone to be able to generate their own ERC20 MAID with a signature proving that they own the given bitcoin address and indicate to which ethereum address they want the smart contract send ERC20 MAID
This is how the Hex smart contract allows bitcoin owners to claim Hex for free. Their contract has 2 audits and we can easily use it to generate ERC20 MAID without a third partyâŚ
People controlling Bitcoin worth over 3 billion has been claiming Hex this way for free for 9 months.
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Iâd say this is a separate question, one which can get a bit muddled with the concept of the MAID proxy token, which is a parallel issue.
The Network can happily get up and running, and function as intended without the need for any exchanges, or integration with any blockchain, or bridges to any other cryptocurrency.
Thatâs by design: itâs not a decentralised, autonomous data network if it needs those things. And thatâs because Safecoin is redeemable against network storage, and can be earned by supplying resource to the network.
And it, of course, can be transferred between users of the network easily and almost instantly, without fees.
One can immediately see the advantage of people being able to trade or purchase Safecoin via an exchangeâbut this is secondary to the operation of the network.
Plus, designing this process via ECR20 or Omni etc seems quite a convoluted way to do it. Why not just Safecoin directly? Faster and cheaper for all concerned, and all the tools would be there for an exchange to do it.
EDIT: Sorry @anon57419684, I didnât see youâd made a separate thread on this subject!
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Because Ethereum is a huge ecosystem with millions and millions of users. If we have a ERC20 token there we have access to DeFi.
And who made a Safe network with access to this ecosystem will have a huge advantage in attracting farmers and resourcesâŚ
We can pray for someone to do this for us or not to leave things in the hands of others and do it ourselves. As soon as our technology is proven, copies will appear as with bitcoin. Things do not exist in a vacuumâŚ
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My point is this is a separate thing (and it would be great!) but itâs not necessary for a functioning network.
And itâs also not going to be the ultimate destination.
Itâs not necessary for an exchange to do this, so the first one to leave the blockchain out of it, is going to offer faster and cheaper transactions, and win out.
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After official release of SafeCoin there will be 10% from total SafeCoins from ICO holders (452 552 412) and 5% (226 276 206) from share holders ready to claim. So after claim they can sell or give to anyone. Other SafeCoins will be from farmers day by day.
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It is mandatory if we want to protect the financial interests of people who have invested their savings in the project and years of support and time.
If not, someone elseâs network with ERC20 safecoin is more likely to grow faster than ours because it pays its farmers better.
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Oh, itâs absolutely necessary for MaidSafe up meet itâs obligations, and of course it will!
But I want to be clear that the MAID proxy token (be it ECR20, OMNI or whatever) it just a transitional thing. Once they are redeemed, thatâs it, they have no other function other than that.
This is highly debatable. Safecoin will be both free, almost instant to trade, and have a better UX⌠so whyâother than proxy trading before the networkâor perhaps a stop gap convenience shortly after launch would any exchange actually want to do this by design?
âERC20 Safecoinâ would be more hassle for users, have higher cost of sale for the exchange, and therefore represent poorer value for the consumer.
But just to reiterate (before I get us to far off topic) this is a different question to the OP, which is about ECR20 MAID.
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I donât think itâs different, but I donât want to take any more of your time. Personally, it is enough for me to have any network. I personally will continue to support you and the whole team, regardless of the financial side.
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To have the process of buying/selling safecoin HAVE TO go through ERC20 is backwards thinking and will complicate things. For instance new user How do I get SAFEcoin to put stuff on the network today/now
- Get yourself ETH (for gas and to pay for ERC20 coin you intend to buy)
- Buy ERC20:MAID (or whatever you want to call it)
- Go to a dex or exchange and buy SAFEcoin with it
- Then you can upload.
Why not just
- go to exchange and buy SAFEcoin
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I fixed it for you Rob 
- Go to a dex and buy SAFEcoin with it
dex does not take credit/debit/bank card. Or has a bank joined some dex