Introducing our latest White Paper and… Autonomi

[neo]

@Mendrit

Unofficial pdf of Autonomi white paper

Says its deleted

[loziniak]

@loziniak

soundtrack

Found it!!

GUTSEV - Storm [Phonk Video Edit]

[JimCollinson]

@neo

The 70% of total supply is being split on a 70%/30% basis with 30% of the 70% total supply going as royalties. What ever you give the farmers will eventually pay for storage and thus 15% of that ends up as royalties. Sort of double dipping seeing as royalties is not a tax system.

Where does it say that 30% of 70% will be royalties?

The 70% will be emitted to nodes…

15% of that will end up back as royalties eventually as those emissions are spent again by uploaders of course, but that’s not “double dipping” it’s just recirculation.

Perhaps this edit to the diagram makes it clearer?

[JimCollinson]

@neo

I am guessing though that a pdf will only be officially released when they have ironed out any issues.

Yeah, living doc at the moment so we can put it through it’s paces, and then we can format it better.

[raulillo]

root@6654ad5899fd:~# time safe files download “Autonomi White Paper.pdf” 3d8b80031d088fd244ab79498d245e62e75ce48bedc9afd6d0f46724801f4277
Logging to directory: “/root/.local/share/safe/client/logs/log_2024-03-22_16-03-06”
Built with git version: 01c2e57 / main / 01c2e57
Instantiating a SAFE client…
Trying to fetch the bootstrap peers from https://sn-testnet.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/network-contacts
Connecting to the network with 49 peers
Connected to the Network Downloading “Autonomi White Paper.pdf” from 3d8b80031d088fd244ab79498d245e62e75ce48bedc9afd6d0f46724801f4277 with batch-size 16
Error downloading “Autonomi White Paper.pdf”: Network Error GetRecord Query Error RecordNotFound.

real 0m13.390s
user 0m1.899s
sys 0m0.796s

[TylerAbeoJordan]

I was able to successfully download it, so upload did work. Try reducing your batch size – like this:

safe files download --batch-size 1 "Autonomi White Paper.pdf" 3d8b80031d088fd244ab79498d245e62e75ce48bedc9afd6d0f46724801f4277

edit: I just now downloaded it again and worked fine.

[raulillo]

Was the file uploaded with “-p” to make it public?

root@6654ad5899fd:~# safe files download --batch-size 1 "Autonomi White Paper.pdf" 3d8b80031d088fd244ab79498d245e62e75ce48bedc9afd6d0f46724801f4277
Logging to directory: "/root/.local/share/safe/client/logs/log_2024-03-22_16-48-48"
Built with git version: 01c2e57 / main / 01c2e57
Instantiating a SAFE client...
Connecting to the network with 1 peers
🔗 Connected to the Network                                                                                                                          Downloading "Autonomi White Paper.pdf" from 3d8b80031d088fd244ab79498d245e62e75ce48bedc9afd6d0f46724801f4277 with batch-size 1
Error downloading "Autonomi White Paper.pdf": Network Error GetRecord Query Error RecordNotFound.

[JayBird]

For PDF: I don’t know if it works from a phone, but you can click on the hamburger menu in your browser, and then click on “Print”, and then save it as a PDF. I’m not certain this answers your question, but I’m throwing it out there for anyone who was unaware

[TylerAbeoJordan]

@raulillo

Was the file uploaded with “-p” to make it public?

DOH!!!

Fixed it.

[Mindphreaker]

@JimCollinson any chance we get these points adressed in an updated version of the WP?

@Mindphreaker

• Free payments: “all payments are just like any other data on the Network, payments can be made without transaction fees”. This is confusing to me. My understanding is, that you need to pay a one-time fee for each write action. If payments are treated like other data, shouldn’t this payment then also occur?
• Payment spam prevention: If no fee is applied, how does the network prevent spam payments?
• Incentive for adding storage / nodes: It’s mentioned multiple times, that increased prices will incentivize adding resources to the network. On the other hand it states, that all nodes are paid equally (regardless of their provided resources) to prevent centralization of storage. To me this sounds, like it incentivizes someone to run as many nodes as possible on one machine / and or data center. To prevent this you would need to have a mechanism to detect and prevent multiple nodes on one machine / IP in order to still reach the goal of decentralization, but this is not covered at all how this is done, or am I missing something?
• Payments architecture: I understand all payments are traced via a huge DAG. How is this stored / distributed on the network and throughout the groups? How does the double spending prevention work? I think we need more details here with concrete examples e.g. how groups communicate such verification requests and how the DAG is utilized. When I think about DAGs I think about IOTAs scaling issues and how they had to implement pruning techniques, because the DAG was growing so fast and became unusable on small devices.
• Consensus: How is consensus reached 1. within a group and 2. inbetween groups? A communication schema regarding the DAG would be helpful here imo.
• Burn mechanism: Only a short paragraph that leaves more questions than it answers. Who is in control of the burn mechanism. Can this be utilized by everyone (e.g. choose to burn their tokens?) In which scenarios will this be used, by whom etc.? Should be covered in more detail as it obviously has potentially a huge impact on token prices.

I think once we get more traction these will be asked frequently. Having this covered in the WP would make the it much more valuable IMO.

[JimCollinson]

Sure, we can look at that and start working on adding more detail over the coming weeks.

[JimCollinson]

Bunch of the corrections mentioned in the thread now in the paper BTW folks

[TylerAbeoJordan]

As Jim has updated the paper, I made a V2 of the PDF

safe files download --batch-size 1 "Autonomi White Paper.pdf" 7d56b096a6d175e7afaed68b5bfc4cba7db12fd659791fcc1e2837c52edad243

[Safemoon]

First of all, congratulations to Maidsafe for the incredible work done with the white paper, I love it, but I think that not enough emphasis has been placed on the network token, correct me if I’m wrong but when changing from the DBC system to the current one I believed understand that this system retained many of the virtues of the DBC, and not a single one of them is mentioned in the white paper. I was fascinated by the possibilities of DBCs as offline payments… I understand that that is no longer possible, but I would love to know in more detail the full potential of the new token

[happybeing]

I agree that more can be made of the benefits and capabilities of Autonomi, not just regarding the token but in many areas.

In some places where benefits are mentioned it follows a technical description as if it’s an afterthought, not up front and prominent enough IMO.

I think what is there is generally excellent, and that it can be improved by listing more of the many ways in which this network will change the landscape, how this will benefit users, developers and service providers, and the ways it will enable many others to become participants in different roles.

[neo]

@JimCollinson

Where does it say that 30% of 70% will be royalties?

Without saying what it will be used for the only conclusion is that it is going to the foundation, otherwise it sits in limbo according to the WP.

This is why I said it needs better explanation. If it was all going to nodes then why even have the 70/30 split of the 70% of total supply? That doesn’t make sense with that was said. You obviously know and understand but it wasn’t conveyed in the text and diagrams just have it in limbo.

[rreive]

“When data is paid for, transaction information is stored on the Network in ‘spends’. These contain the transaction plus all its inputs and outputs. To enable auditing of supply and confirm there are no double-spends, clients can trace a spend’s history and locate all subsequent spends recursively to build a directed acyclic graph (DAG). Transactions can be traced using this graph all the way back to the Genesis or emission event, should the user desire.”

My understanding is it’s up to the user to build the DAG graph for their spend history, which is data pulled from the distributed ledger, so such activity is selectively out of band, performed using Autonomi local node or client system clock and ram, so such DAG Graph creation and audit scans should not impact the ‘in band’ performance of Autonomi write and read traffic?

Am I reading this correctly?

[neo]

Once there are billions upon billions of chunks stored, that is going to be one huge DAG. Apart from wanting to audit ones spends back to genesis there will only be need to check on the parents of a transaction IIUC.

There is talk of some nodes on the network being DAG nodes to ease the process of traversing the tree

[Toivo]

So the absolute bottom price for a chunk is 30. But 30… what? What is the unit of that 30?

Or are the equation and the graphs just sketches, not final numbers?

Based on WP and information on the forum I would make the following calculation:

Chunk is 0.5MB and it cannot cost less than 30 whole tokens. MAID’s will convert to those tokens 1:1, so at current prices of USD/MAID storing of 0.5MB would cost about 15 USD. On the other hand, on testnets the units we talk about are nanos, maybe it’s 30 nanos? But the formula, or the graph don’t indicate any units. So what are they?

And actually, what’s the reasoning of having exactly 30 whatevers as the bottom price? Why not 20, 40 or 0?

I don’t see any need in having bottom price. I think the first chunk on the network could very well be free, because it anyway is, when the data persists from late beta to launch.

Or if this graph is just a sketch, no worries.

(I think we need a separate thread for data pricing, but it’s getting late here, got to go to sleep.)

[loziniak]

I thinks it’s just a sketch, because it was said that node software can be modified and pricing algorithm can be changed, at least the changed node can be removed from neighbors’ routing tables, or just be avoided by clients due to high price.