Can Safecoin function as STAND ALONE?

Autonomi Network Token (incl (e)MAID)
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I’ve been wondering this for a while now. Can Safecoin function as stand alone. I know that it’s a question that can be answered, by just asking if it is the fuel of the network. But fuels can also be taken out of places/cars, to fuel other stuff.

Could I go to a place with no internet connection and transfer a Safecoin to another person in the same place with no internet connection? This transaction could take place over wifi/bluetooth or what have you…

I mostly think about it working like this:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/hubski/tin-can-text-messages-without-the-internet?ref=nav_search

Let’s say that the other person doesn’t have a wallet installed on their phone that problem could be solved by just doing the same as the servalproject does: (transfer the wallet to them, this feature is described @ 2:17)

I know that the next question would be couldn’t these Safecoins get lost? The other reason, why I ask this, is a Safecoin that can function without the internet, is a way better proposition compare to other cryptocurrencies. If this is possible it will be the closes thing to cash period. Imagine the internet going offline, the people using Safecoin could still buy&sell whatever they want too.

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Good ideas but it seems the both projects are failing (not getting anywhere, that is).
I don’t know about their technology so I’d say it’s the silly kickstarter model where people donate stuff in exchange for nothing (ah, sorry - I forgot the T-Shirts). Then if the project gets stuck, it’s as good as dead. They would have gotten farther with the crowdfunding model used by MaidSafe.

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I don’t think these projects have failed they give us insight.

Safecoin could put itself on another level by being standalone… Usually when I look @ Bitcoin videos you sometimes get the comment “No internet, no Bitcoin LOL”. I guess, I just don’t want to see that comment when they look @ a future Safecoin video. Anonimity??? YAWN!!! Only people who set standards get a true loyal following (APPLE).

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This is how I gave someone MaidSafeCoin in exchange for a real world item. Almost one month ago :smiley:

Correction: I simply used a piece of paper and wrote the wallet ID and password, and on that wallet there are MaidSafeCoins which was traded for a real world item.

That item was actually a train ticket;

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They haven’t been released nearly on time (failure number 1) and what’s worse, they took others’ money based on the promise they’d be released (failure number 2).
I said above that the ideas are good, but the projects themselves appear to have been failures. I claim the silly kickstarter model is one of main causes, because now the work that’s been done is stuck, whereas in case of crowdsourced and/or open sourced models someone could continue their work.

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I think that the idea is brilliant but how to achieve it I haven’t the slightest of insight. I just had a similar thought only regarding NFC transfer systems which I don’t know much about. What I do know is apple is making a wallet that integrates ibeacon(which I find creepy) to NFC and there is a project called sigsafe ('Sigsafe' Key Tag Brings Bitcoin Payments to NFC Devices)
That allows bitcoin transaction over that payment system with a lot of user control. NOW if a wallet that lived securely on safe that was able to transfer to bitcoin quickly somehow then commercial transactions could happen via safecoin outside the network! Not quite what you’re thinking of but interesting thought in my mind :slight_smile:

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Hi @Nigel

What I’m thinking about is Safecoin still working without a Maidsafe Network and internet. In the scenario that I describe above, I would meet you in the middle of nowhere (with no internet connection). I would have a Safecoin on my wallet. Let’s say that you don’t have the wallet I can transfer it to you (like can be done with the serval project above). After that I transfer the wallet to you, I transfer a Safecoin to you. What this means: is that we did a Safecoin transaction without the Maidsafe Network or Internet.

Now the mindset of some people might be that the Safecoins should only be on the Maidsafe Network. “It’s the fuel of the network”, but I think that if Safecoins can operate in standalone, that it will give it more value. I’ll give a silly example: Let’s say I live in New York and every internet connection in NY is offline. If I had my Safecoin on my laptop or phone. I would still be able to go to Los Angeles and send a Safecoin to some one in LA. So what I’m getting at is, the Safecoin could operate on it’s own. If we would dig deeper a Safecoin could also be send through SMS. The wallet that I can transfer to you, will be a Android or IOS app depending on your phone.

@ first sight I would say that a standalone Safecoin can work, because after all everything is nothing but data. Like a Tincan message a Safecoin could travel.

Let’s look again if a standalone Safecoin could work. A Safecoin remembers the previous and present owner (it’s not tied to a blockchain, so it don’t need a confirmation from a miner). Let’s say that I would send you a coin in the middle of nowhere. When I return back to the city where there is a Maidsafe Network and Internet. What would happen is that my wallet would communicate that I send you Safecoins. Let’s say that my wallet would be delete from my phone. It’s when the person in the middle of nowhere comes into the range of an internet connection or another person visiting with a Safecoin wallet. That the information that he holds the coin gets passed on. Safecoins could live outside the Maidsafe network, because they won’t all be need to let it operate.

A standalone coin bring us the nightmare of coins getting lost. Actually not only standalone coins also Bitcoins and other altcoins can be lost. I don’t really believe in coins getting lost, because everything can be programmed. And when you look @ it, you could program a coin that magically reappear on the network after that it has not been active for a period of 10 years. The idea that coins can be lost due to human error, computer crashes etc, and that we accept it, is a little weird in my opinion. Coins that would constantly be in circulation would just function as normal. But if you would be saving these Safecoins once in 10 years you got to send them to another address.
When you send them to another one of your addresses, that wakes em up again for another 10 years.

We could also have a “Please keep my Safecoins in my wallet” code. For instance if you can’t get to your wallet, because your in the hospital, coma or whatever. Your family would just type in 101010 and that would extend your Safecoins for another 10 years.

Imagine a moment without the internet (like when Amazon had problems), Imagine still being able to use your Safecoin. You could still go and get your groceries and everybody not using Safecoins? Well they have to wait till the internet gets back on

:stuck_out_tongue:

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That’s a lot of assumptions. If he doesn’t have the wallet where exactly do you send stuff to?
Are you going to give him a copy of your entire wallet? Or are you going to create a wallet with a single file just for him in case you meet him?

Home-porn amateurs beg to disagree!

So coins that you don’t know about magically appear in another wallet belongs to you? How does the network know which wallet is that (and that you still have a password to it)?

Currently there’s no deletion (maybe it will be implemented later on) so this isn’t possible. But if it becomes possible, they could simply send a Safecoin or two to fund your MaidSafe account (which they’d get from your lawyer or other such service).
There’s no need to complicate things and reinvent the wheel when there are mechanisms that have worked well for hundreds of years.
A twist on the lawyer approach are multi-signature wallets where in case of one’s death the lawyer and family could jointly gain access to the deceased person’s private porn collection.
Where would someone enter 101010 if they don’t know what’s your MaidSafe address?
Or, if they knew your MaidSafe address and the code and the network had deletion (of stale/old data), it should be apparent that entering of some random numbers wouldn’t quite do it for the farmers who expect to get paid… Of course some grace period (say 3 months after X years of inactivity) would probably be built in, but the point is once that deadline expires as a farmer I couldn’t care less whether someone somewhere entered 101010 - I’d want to get paid.

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I only make the assumption, because you try not to get in a situation that you want to give somebody a coin and you can’t. I would advice to look at the serval project above… I said it wrong earlier, but @2:14 they explain how you can send the app to another person who doesn’t have it. In the same way you could send a wallet to another person who doesn’t have the wallet installed on their phone.

Ooh I’ll take away all the glamour and glitter talk of letting a coin magically reappear on the network. The coin actually doesn’t magically reappear on the network, what happens is this.

  • Every coin is born from a coinpool, if a coin is on the network moving from person to person it’s ok.
  • If a coin leaves the network it’s programmed to have a lifespan of 10 years, after that, it passes away.
  • Because the network didn’t get in contact with the coin for 10 years, the network makes the same coin again.
    I know that this set of cause/effect creates a new question. What if the coin comes into contact with a new network? Well in sucha case the coin would get a new ID, just like when you move to another country to become citizen there.
    I know that with the Safecoin LIMIT, that this might be a problem. But I’m sure that there will be Maidsafe networks out there that will never see the bigger internet, because they are community driven. But this should not stop a network from well coming a Safecoin (after all we’re all programmed the same).

I did not say that… I said that you could send somebody else a wallet, after that you can send them a Safecoin.

Sorry I should have explain this part better. Let’s say some one is in coma for 7 years, but his family doesn’t have the password to his fund (bad set up, anyway). They still have faith that one day he will get out of that state, so they want to extend his Safecoin’s lifespan. Because Safecoins would have a lifespan of 10 year, after that, his coin would selfdestruct and reappear in the coinpool. To prevent the Safecoin from selfdestructing, they would send 101010 from any Safecoin address to his Safecoin address (so you don’t need his username/password or whatever other login method). 101010 would not be an amount in Safecoins, but a message to keep the Safecoins ALIVE for another 10 years. And yes in this set up, your right that you could never send another person 101010 Safecoins.

Why I’m talking about the lifespan in the first place, is because that way, coins are never lost. All cryptocurrency now have that dissadvantage that they can simply be lost due to human error, computer crashes etc. With a mechanism like this in place, Safecoins would never get lost and they could live off the grid.

I don’t fully understand how recycling works, but I assume that if I loose my login stuff. I’m just saying this from my foolish consumer point of view, that if I don’t have access to my Maidsafe account anymore, that my Safecoins will be in limbo forever, forever ever, forever ever.

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I feel like realistically you’d need a proxy token to be used outside the network. I think this subject is def worth the thought but it does raise a lot of concerns. My main one is how the coins are cryptographically signed is not blockchain based but THROUGH the network utilizing user names and other client side info. And for that you need to be connected to the network. If there was an app with a safe browser like plugin or a plugin that accomplished what the talked about safe browser plugin accomplished then perhaps you could have a transaction queue? Def complicated

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I agree with @Nigel.

Having Safecoin off the network is not possible, but I can see that the functionality you describe (though I didn’t read you long post, just the earlier short one) can be achieved. It would require you to purchase something with your Safecoin that can be transferred off-network - a proxy coin as @Nigel said wrapped up in a wallet. Its a bit like a bankers draft (money is debited when you get issued the cheque - you can then hand the check over to someone and they know it is as good as cash). This can be replicated electronically, if it isn’t already - its just a matter of someone adapting it to Safecoin.

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And what else could be cool is the proxy token could incentivize all sorts of things. First that comes to mind is mesh networking. So any safecoin you have could be paid to others with service when you don’t have it. Mesh networking is great but lacks that incentive structure if this proxy token was tied to safe it could be used to pay those who contribute their services of any kind and be secure at the same time on both ends. Something interesting as a side note is the nxt community is working on integrating sidechains and also has an asset exchange which I didn’t realize. Both of which would make what we’re talking about a lot more feasible. I honestly think nxt would be a great platform to perform something like this on.

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Hi @Nigel the Safecoin remembers it’s previous owner and current owner. Let’s say that this Safecoin would be introduce to another Maidsafe network, there is no reason for it not to function in this new environment. It would still contain the info, it has from the previous Maidsafe network. Now my question is: If a Safecoin can remember it’s previous and current owner, why woulden’t it be able to remember the previous and current Maidsafe network? The money supply doesn’t have to change on the current Maidsafe network. All that would happen is that the network would see, that it has a new coin not from it’s original coinpool, but since it’s a Safecoin it will be accepted and 1 less Safecoin will come into existence out the coinpool.

@happybeing to this I like to add:
Having Safecoin off the network is not possible YET. Maybe it’s because we didn’t think outside the box.

If we take the approach of creating another token to substitute a Safecoin, then not much has changed. In life you should never think in terms of limitation or impossibility. A Safecoin will simply stand out if it can stand by it own. Who know’s the wallet can be a micro Maidsafe network.

Let’s sum up the advantages

  • It would be the first of it’s kind.
  • If the internet went down, you could still pay with it (this makes it as important, if not, even more important than cash).
  • You could take it everywhere
  • With the lifespan feature above, your Safecoin supply never decreases (A Bitcoin problem still got to solve, but they could change the money supply and…)

Oooh keee I’ll stop this spam now, but keep in mind in the future we will have a coin that can function off the grid and still electrify our day2day payments…

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I asked David a similar question for the interview that @frabrunelle recorded… not directed at the coin, but more geared towards the data and a situation where say Maidsafe has global adoption and Egypt cut off Internet however had mesh network infrastructure in place to provide connectivity within.
The short answer is that the network would split into two and adjust. Data bits for users in Egypt would be lost if dependent on chunks outside the cut-off line but caching would definitely help give a better chance to more popular data.
In relation to safecoin, it seems like it would only prevent spending between the two networks and still function within each.

Once rejoined, the networks would readjust and global safecoin spending would resume.

Generally, however once mesh networks become this common, crossing borders will be easy enough and there’s little to worry about regarding isp or govt control.

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I think you’re looking at the Internet as a specific method of connecting through ISPs or something. It’s important to keep in mind what the grid is in “off the grid”… if everyone is connected to each other through wifi and bluetooth instead of going through ISPs is it still the Internet? I would argue yes, just evolved.

The coin is dependent on the network because of the transaction manager process. You are dependent on connecting to other vaults who act as transaction managers to verify that you are not double spending coins.

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@ioptio it’s Paige Peterson! Just heard you on a recent LTB episode didn’t realize this was your handle. To address @19eddyjohn75 statement about not thinking outside the box I totally agree with you but like @ioptio said the transaction managers are integral. For that you need the network which could be solved the same way a browser plugin is solved I’d assume BUT you still need connectivity to the network however you can connect be it ISP, mesh net, etc. i think the proxy token solves the problem most efficiently but that could be up to debate. One thought that I had earlier today was what if there was an exchange where safecoin could buy the proxy token and then instead of it being the exchanges to own it would be recycled back into the safe coin ecosystem. Since safecoins are really supposed to be recycled they would remain to perform their function on the network

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I would argue if the cut off community is small enough… forget about money. :slight_smile:

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Maybe how these guys chopUp data could help, but they are a commercial company. Heee Maidsafe should work like LEGO

Thanks this gives a better understanding, I thought the coins where all independent and had info attach to the coin. Info like:
I’m Safecoin #101010 (this would be constant)
I belonged to Alice, I now belong to Bob (this would change/update)
I’m in wallet 12334 (which is Bob’s wallet) (this would change/update)
etc, I even had the weird thought of every coin having a mind of it’s own (programmable money)

I know exactly what you mean, thought about the same except in the sense of the coin being turned into a physical coin. Which could be Id-ed through a smartphone with nfc.

That’s just taking the easy route, imagine people in the Amazon forest being able to use a Safecoin. I’m personally not for a 1 world currency, but if Safecoin could be used worldwide online/offline it would be sumthing. Yeah I know that a paperwallet can be seen as offline currency, but still you need to be online to confirm it.

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@19eddyjohn75 you might have to go to the FAQ on this sites main page, maidsafe.net and metaquestions.me
And read some more content. I don’t want to come off as rude but there’s a lot that you’re missing. That last video you posted is far less impressive than what maidsafe already does which is cut data into 1mb chunks, self encrypt client side, and place 4 copies of the same data in 4 different continents respectively to your geographic location. Everyone here is willing to help answer questions and theorize and trust me I do this too because I’m not as advanced as others on here but you have to get some of the basics because these questions have been asked and answered so many times, the info is already out there.

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Why would you take the hard route? Money facilitates trade in a world of scarce resources… in a community where scarcity is not an issue there is no need to introduce tokens to represent value.

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