A Second (vampire) network attack - discussion

At least 10 years is needed for them to make product like maidsafe.

1 Like

I have no doubt folk will try and succeed to fork all OSS projects, but the real questions are (IMO)

Did their project succeed? and if not, did their failure affect the main project adversely or positively?

3 Likes

bitcoin and ethereum (and many other examples) show that people tend to stick with the original no matter how many ā€œimprovementsā€ are made to the copy thereof.
So I am not worried for the Safe Networkā€¦ copying is said to be the most sincere form of flattery :grinning:

4 Likes

ā€¦ and you canā€™t fork the soul and integrity of the original team.

6 Likes

Yes that is probably a poor example in a technical sense :grinning:

1 Like

We are not a blockchain. If a copy steals a certain percentage of ours farmers, even temporarily, as happened with Bitcoin Cash during the war for domination, it could destroy our network. We need an iron economy - constant growth and acceptance of new farmers, even if we have to force it artificially using part of the inflation + we need a connection to the DEX etherium exchanges so that people can speculate on the price as they speculate with Filecoin.

This graphic clearly shows how farmers moved from the original to the copy during the Bitcoin Hash War. Safe can withstand such an attack without losing data, but only if it is large enough:

Screenshot_2021-01-13_02-38-06

Analysis of the hash war: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1902.11064.pdf

2 Likes

Thatā€™s why we need Ethereum Dexs - everything is moving there:

https://defipulse.com/

1 Like

If you could they would just join forces and collaborate.

2 Likes

When I wrote 1 year ago that UniSwap is something very magical few people here appreciated it:

UniSwap is a smart contract on the Ethereum network. The keys are yours. No KYC. It is onchain. It is trustless. This is the right way. The crypto was invented to REMOVE counterparties, not add themā€¦

But other people appreciated it and made a copy of it called SushiSwap.

The difference with the original was that there is a different economic model - instead of the UniSwap free service, in SushiSwap they had added their own token.

Out of greed, people started moving from UniSwap to SushiSwap (this chart shows how 60% of liquidity shifts):

So the good people from UniSwap were forced to stick a token to their product - they distributed it to 250k addresses (free $ 2000 per address). This turned the tide and drew people back to UniSwap:

I have said what I think is an appropriate solution - if people are not willing to pay to use the network, part of the inflation can be paid to the foundation and it can use that money to upload data to the network so that it can grow and to attract new farmers.

I also think that there are a lot of smart people in the community, and when a potential problem is identified, these people will use the power of their minds to solve these potential problems.

Iā€™ve also said many times that every member of the community, instead of believing that things will work out on their own, should consider what they can do personally to help. There is no one else to do the job, we have to do it.

6 Likes

What do you see as the answers to those questions, succeed? help or hinder?

1 Like

David, Iā€™m not sure are you asking me or do you want other opinions?

In the scenario you posted do you feel the competitor succeeded?
Also do you feel this helped or hindered the original project?

I donā€™t think thatā€™s important. One must look at oneself and try to achieve the best, not look at the competition.

If someone can beat him in his best game, then they are more useful to humanity.

My point is that Safe is a public good. Once created, it doesnā€™t matter who develops it. The point is to give our best. And I think the projectā€™s economy can be improved by introducing a player (foundation) to pay for uploading data that will be useful to humanity and help the network to grow faster.

About UniSwap - I think it helped them. People love drama. There are now two armies, both attracting new people. Some people see security in the larger UniSwap army and speculate on its token, but the smaller SushiSwap army is growing as well - people see an opportunity to bet on the smaller dog and turn the game around.

2 Likes

Kinda defeats the point of the topic though :wink:

2 Likes

For me, this topic is to help us discuss a potential weakness of our network and how to fix it if we think we want to. The point is not to protect us from competition but to be better :dragon:

3 Likes

This is kinda the truth your hitting on here.

As Iā€™ve said before: focus on the dataā€”this is the key. How we make the Network as useful for people as possible in allowing them to add, access, and share their data, and communicate with each other, is how we make the network resilient, strong, and a success. All else flows from this.

5 Likes

Let me try to explain, because what you are saying is true, but it is not the solution at the moment.

The struggle for women to have the right to vote in the United States has lasted for 90 years.

What do you think has changed in these 90 years? Have people changed genetically to suddenly see the truth that women also deserve the right to vote?

What has changed is the way people think.

The current design of the network economy is based on the assumption that we think people will pay to upload their data. We have no evidence for this. From the other networks (filecoin, sia, storj) that work for decentralised storage, we see that people buy tokens for speculation, not for use.

Are you ready to bet our whole future on this assumption, for which there is no hard data that people are ready for it now and not in 90 years?

4 Likes

Yes.

If people are only buying the token for speculation, and no-one is using it for data on the Network, then there is no Network.

The Network is data.

9 Likes

The idea of ā€‹ā€‹the Safe Network is to improve human life. People are the important part. They are the network.

If we have a functioning growing network, even if it is not used by people for anything other than speculation in the first 1-50 years, we increase the chance that one day it will improve peopleā€™s livesā€¦

1 Like

Itā€™s a good question to ponder, but you paint the choice differently than it appears to me. I think the difference is that people can also earn the money needed to pay for data. The question is still valid, but this is a big difference - the ease with which almost anyone will be able to earn to pay for their use.

We should look for similar models in order to answer your question. I donā€™t think any exist in storage, maybe in other areas of tech? Or maybe in other avenues altogether.

The question really will be, when someone had the choice of X or Safe, is Safe easy enough, and apparently better enough for them to select it in preference to X. This is very hard to guess the answer to, but I think helps to direct or energies.

MaidSafe well know this, which is why they arenā€™t relying on just a really useful service, but making it best of breed: ease of use, adoption, security, privacy, utility etc.

1 Like