21's big idea......$75M of funding

OK I will try to explain the problem they are addressing and how the problem is addressed in their best case scenario.

Problem: A whole suite of internet services cannot be made available or can only be made available at user inconvenience. Because there is a tiny little cost for each additional user of the service, like a thousandth or millionth of a penny cost, and there is no way to bill users in that small of increments.

So we have this fundamental problem with bringing services to people, services that would improve their lives, that would improve society, that would make everyone happier, more productive, less inconvenienced, what have you. But those services can’t be provided, even though they were used billions of times by millions of people, because the total cost for all that would only be, say $1 million. And there is no way for 100 million people to pay $1 million aggregate, with individual payments, to a service provider for 10 billion transactions. Because each transaction is billed and paid in the average amount of $0.0001, and although computing power has long surpassed the point where it costs far less than a hundredth of a penny in electricity to process the ledger entry, invoice generation, and all the processing of the transaction, the financial system as a social institution, has not kept up the pace and provided a mechanism as of yet to effect the transfer of that hundredth of a penny from the service recipient to the service provider.

These transactions have value, (demand), but they cost resources to provide (supply). So they can’t be made free for everyone to use. This is called the tragedy of the commons. It was solved in Western society by common law beginning with the magna carta, ensuring strong property rights immune to takings without compensation, but this is a lecture about the future, not the past.

I bring up the past because there are long-standing problems with computers and humans coexisting on a network, many of which the maidsafe project has had to struggle with, and one of bitcoin’s major innovations was the use of proof of work to solve sibil attacks and peer to peer network architecture to avoid ddos attacks.

So the tragedy of the commons is central to these attacks. As a conceptual thing, you can think of a game preserve, a well, a river, an ocean.

This is turning into a book and I’m tired of typing and have other things to do, so…

Internet of things is going to require objects like your car, 3d printer, cell phone, microwave, oven, washing machine, whatever object to be able to pass an “are you a _____ machine”? test like we currently rely on “are you a human” tests to do, which can really only be done with secure handshakes that accomplish device authentication. Because machines can’t do captcha, so they need to have some store of value that they can use to stamp handshakes or else handshakes could be faked for free by emulators, since the chip in your car is never going to be 1/100 as smart as the chips in your botnet.

@lowry_jim

Location information is not going to be included in the microtransaction. Activity is not going to be included in the microtransaction.

Are you serious Jim? For someone who’s been in this space as a big investor for some time, presumably having due diligence done by people who understand the technology and societal issues, you do come across as ill informed.

If you believe what you just said, while true, is any kind of rebuttal of privacy concerns, and you care about the issue, I’ll be happy to consider your request for some paid consultancy on the issue. Not because I’m the world’s expert on this, but because I can certainly help you get a more accurate understanding of why this is a massive threat to the privacy of anyone who has a device participating in 21’s scheme.

The concerns expressed on this thread are entirely justified in my technical opinion, and make me wonder how much of 21’s funding is normal, make money whatever VC based, and how much orchestrated by other interests. The NSA Bulldog programme has a $250m* annual budget for this kind of stuff, and we know the USG has all sorts of ways of funnelling secret money into dodgy, strategically important, projects. And that there are always people willing to do the dirty work, even when it its much harder to self deceive over than this (cf. APA role in CIA torture).

*Well, that was the budget when Snowdon took his snapshot. No sign of contrition or reigning in the NSA to date, not even a scapegoat or a wrist slap, despite courts throwing out the justifications and upholding Snowden’s claims of constitutional violation, lies to congress, Senate committee etc etc etc. What world do you live in Jim?

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So it is being solved without the requirement to pay one central company every time a device authenticates.

Local network servers authenticate devices now.

Only need to use public/private key pairs and the local network service does the required authentication. No need for blockchain. Just opensource programs

The idea of using the blockchain is interesting and only required if you are going to monetise the process. 21 is slick but even their docos smell of using the public for their own ends.

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The guys at Maidsafe had a similar fundamental problem - they managed to somehow overcome these problems when trying to “improve Society” without trampling all over our Civil Liberties.
The main motivation here is clearly something other, than to “improve Society”.
Your argument appears to be an Economic one, disguised as an Ethical one and again addresses none of the actual concerns raised…

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“21 Announces The Bitcoin Computer, A Mini-Mining Machine Coupled With A Payment System”

21 Announces The Bitcoin Computer, A Mini-Mining Machine Coupled With A Payment System – TechCrunch

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500 dollars, with .25cents ROI. However, the 21 will take the 75 percent of the mining. Which makes it… negative ROI.

Another miner scam company.

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I had a lot of ads passing this in front of me when it first appeared. But the more I looked at it, the less sense it made. “How is one board from one user practical for mining when pool mining is becoming impractical even with ASICs?”

Trying to look for answers to that, I found less information about the actual product and more information pages completely filled with buzzwords intended to make it sell. What is a “bitcoin computer” anyway? A computer is either general purpose or algorithm-specific.

I’m not buying in. And finding this thread here further illustrates why.

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If you take 75% of any positive number, you still end up with a positive number.
Can you explain what you meant by “negative ROI”?

I didn’t read much about the product, but it looks like one of those positioning things, like when Apple, Sony and Microsoft are trying to “own” home entertainment. Here it’s about crypto/finance/IoT.
If the box provided a user friendly interface to cryptobanking, smart contracts, etc. maybe it could sell in millions.

$500 is no pocket change, but until we see what it does it can’t be said it’s expensive.
The usual response by enthusiasts is “That’s bloated and overpriced, I can put this together for $208.20”. Well, good for you, but most people can’t, so properly integrated devices will continue to outsell DIY stuff".

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I think they are planning to achieve something really similar to SAFE.

Take a look at this article: 21 – The planet-sized computer

“USE BITCOIN TO TURN all internet connected hardware into one unified machine. Where THE INTERNET becomes one planet sized computer.”

Far from it. The very fundamental, underlying purpose of it is to make them money. From that they developed this idea to corner the bitcoin mining and become the major player. The “btc” they give you will be used up paying them back for authorizing those very devices with their system installed.

When you realise that SAFE pays you everything for farming, and no one else. (Yes there are other rewards completely separate to farming rewards) Then you start to see the flaws in this system for everyone except 21 corp.

Then also when you realise that the very devices used for “mining pool” that you have to pay for the hardware (& royalties to 21 Corp) and then PAY 21 corp for each time the device authenticates (hourly, daily, more often???). After all this how much of the cents a day does the actual person keep?

Then you realise they want every IoT device to have this installed at the chip level which increases the costs of said devices (and they get h/w royalties) and then you have to pay them to authorise every IoT sensor in your house (chargers, TVs, sensors, thermostats, smart house stuff, etc, etc) on a regular basis and the frequency is set by their authorising system.

Then you realise that all this can be done without paying any outside source any btc/money and you can choose to join mining micro pools with $9 CHIP devices.

They are simply creating a huge money making machine leveraged off the expected mega billion IoT market coming over the next decade.

EDIT: And I expect that they are looking to ice that cake with getting enough out of the mega billions of devices to actually have some control over bitcoin. I guess the creators of 21 corp even think they could control more than 51%. And maybe they don’t expect that either, who knows, but its a possibility.

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I think the “what” is similar, the “how” is totally different. I prefer of course how SAFE is doing it.

But they have some points in their favour, for example huge companies are supporting them: Qualcomm, Intel, Cisco…

I personally do not see that.

My view is that 21 want to make one planet sized computer to mine bitcoin for them. There details are sketchy at best and its focus is on the mining.

SAFE is to make a world wide network primarily and then add computing resources later on. Really its not acting as a world sized computer (for 21 corp’s use), but rather a distributed network with computing nodes, rather like a colony of computers. For some the difference is indistinguishable but its really quite different. For one its anonymous & distributed which means that the computing resources are NOT working together as a unit, unlike 21’s idea which is to have them in charge of that one world computer. There are other significant differences.

For me the “what” is only how they achieve the control and money objectives.

The big players are only there to make money from their investments and they recognise that if 21 can pull this off there is trillions to be made over the next decade or so.

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A list of apps this thing could be used for:

And ideas for the kinds of services people could code up on Safe and charge Safecoin micropayments for too :smile:

More app ideas for @whiteoutmashups? :wink:

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I’m always on the lookout!

And this was very cool, I might make a logo for all of this together

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How 21’s miners will share part of profit from pooled mining.

“At the manufacturer’s discretion, the 21 BitShare chip can be configured to support a variety of different revenue shares for the mined bitcoin. For example, one could build an internet-connected device that shared some portion of mined bitcoin between the user, the retailer, the handset maker, and the carrier — thereby reducing costs and/or increasing margins throughout the entire supply chain. And because of the nature of mining as an embarrassingly parallel problem, embedded mining can scale up or down to fit within the power and thermal envelope of virtually any device.”

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Looking more and more like 21 and deals with other companies to reap the rewards and will see the user pay for it all (equipment/energy) and get extremely little back.

Nothing has changed my personal view that 21 is banking on cornering the mining and making a ton of money. Everything they propose is designed to make them even more money at the expense of everyone, while pretending to be the good guy.

The essence of their proposals is basically OSS stuff and installing it at the chip level to profit off what people have to buy and use. (chargers, smart devices, etc). The user pays the cost of hardware, pays the electricity cost, pays the required fee to authorise the device on a regular basis (time determined by 21) and then 21 keeps whatever (as per article) they want out of the proceeds. Any device not registered earns 21 100% and the registered ones earn 21 & co xx% and the user ends up with y% which has to cover initial cost, electricity and regular authorisation fees.

If 21 wants higher profits they can up the xx% from the 75% starting point to 76% then higher again later on.

They are worse than leeches.

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Of course, you have a crappy CPU pool mining with million other CPUs. What do you think one should get in return for that, a Tesla :wink: ?

Profit is an indicator whether the capital and labor invested is justified. If there’s no profit (no matter how distributed (shares, lottery) and expressed (money, “satisfaction”), it’s a wasteful activity.

I sense unmitigated hostility!
Nobody has to buy their product. If the product is shit, it’s unlikely they’ll survive. If it’s legit, they’ll survive.

This is why I say leeches

They plan to force it upon people – How?

  • doing partnership deals to have it included at the chip level for router devices, for phones, for chargers, smart equipment and so on.

The plan from their press releases is that all equipment that can have it installed will have it. This is where the article part you quoted reiterates the results of this plan.

No choice for the customer, if 21 plans succeed the customer will not be able to by retail product without it.

How many customers will even know?

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Let’s say you and somebody from this forum make a partnership to force me to give you my MAID.
A day passes. Nothing happens. Why is my money not in your wallet? How come?

Why do you care - you won’t buy it.

Nonsense.

Everyone who performs due diligence.
The freaking article is out there for the world to see.
On CoinTelegraph the article had over 1000 views.

It’s like saying the idiots who were last week selling their MAID on MasterXchange for 70 cents on the dollar were “forced” to do that because they “didn’t know” that in the outside world the price was almost 50% higher. Too bad, the government didn’t organize awareness campaign to make sure everybody knows one should do some research or read the freaking news before buying or selling anything they’re not familiar with.