Should maidsafe start giving timescales?

[DavidMc0]

@happybeing

It’s like asking for a timeline for the first flight of a paying passenger plane before the Wright brothers’ maiden flight.

Absolutely. If they had given up because they didn’t know when they’d crack it, they would never have made it. I’m sure they faced much frustration, expense, and uncertainty along the way.

@happybeing

you can’t say to those trying to build the first commercial plane to launch piece by piece - all the parts must be working individually, and then have been fitted together and tested as one unit (lightweight construction, lift, propulsion, control system, etc)

I agree that the whole things needs to work, but I would have thought there are fewer problems to solve, or easier solutions to problems if the load is considerably lighter.

The first aeroplane was a small byplane rather than a commercial airliner. It still needs all the parts, but at a different and far more achievable scale.

Though perhaps the problems remaining to be solved with SAFE network development are just not related to scale & load, but other more tricky issues that are essential for success at any scale, and will scale very easily once solved.

[happybeing]

@DavidMc0

The first aeroplane was a small byplane rather than a commercial airliner. It still needs all the parts, but at a different and far more achievable scale.

Yes, and this is the role of test networks. They are not safe for paying passengers, just a few brave souls like us, who are willing to accept they may crash and burn.

[neo]

@DavidMc0

if the load is considerably lighter.

Since the network is designed to scale. The smallest unit is the section and that still needs the code to operate together.

Its more like building a modern machine, all the parts have to be there and machined to nominal tolerances in order to run. And on top of that the hackability of a insecure system (even one subsystem) can mean that no matter how light the load someone somewhere will overload a incomplete system.

The testnets with invite system is one method to be able to test a subset of the components with some confident that noone will overload the network for giggles.

[foreverjoyful]

@whiteoutmashups

Launch like this:

release datachain work
release early test safecoin code (since it’s “so simple”)
release vaults from home (since it existed about 6 testnets ago)

Aren’t all of their developments open sources? It’ll surprise me if it’s not.

[DavidMc0]

@neo

The smallest unit is the section and that still needs the code to operate together.

Indeed. But weren’t these working fairly well back on test 15, with the only crippling issue being spammers filling up the network’s capacity?

[foreverjoyful]

I do want to mention, even though I’m not a coder, I did some research and guys, it’s a fact that good softwares take a long time to build. Patience is key.

Good Software Takes Ten Years. Get Used To it.

I was worried for longer times it takes to launch for two main reasons:

1. A competition will make another safenetwork faster and
2. The infrastructure of the internet will be out of date, that we will have another form of data storage/coding/internet that uses completely different infrastructures than the Safenetwork can work with, so the whole developed code ends up being outdated and useless(e.g. What Will The Internet Look Like In The Future? - YouTube this video talks about how quantum entanglement can be used to transmit information, and what i found was that they do not travel on wires, the whole current infrastructures will need to be updated to allow qubits to travel and China already is on top of doing it http://www.news.com.au/technology/science/space/china-sets-new-record-for-quantum-entanglement-en-route-to-build-new-communication-network/news-story/e528da0cf68b2e63bbe093cab49ec507)

Conclusion from my research so far though, is that there isn’t really a competition quite yet, the current ones we have, the main one being substratum, is making progress but is also doing their tests, however, i don’t think it’s going to be as good as the Safenetwork technology and privacy wise(although, i may be proven wrong and frankly the safenetwork’s browser isn’t as good in terms of it’s GUI and overall feel, it feels like the old Internet Explorer, while substratum doesn’t need a special browser), and i do notice, they can do marketing much better, with weekly VIDEO developer updates. I mean, for such a short amount of time, they’ve accumulated over 11000+ people in their telegram group. Our group is only current at 1400 people and we started both our existence as well as the telegram group earlier than them. At least 6 months earlier. (which btw, if you use telegram, feel free to join Telegram: Contact @safenetwork). So this will be the biggest ‘concern’ so to speak, if any. Which decentralised internet will have more actual users and adoption. Much like how Bitcoin and other crypto-currencies are competiting for users and adoption. But overall i think if the Safenetwork can do a good job at it’s technology and GUI, it’ll be the biggest in the space.

The second issue, after my research i concluded it’s not a big concern at the moment. The Future of the Internet - YouTube I’ve watched this video and done other research, and concluded that at least for 5 or so years, the whole infrastructure won’t change as much. People and government are still interested in investing into 7 year long projects building new 5G networks for example. And i definitely think in 5 years, they’d be done or basically done with their development. So I’m actually not as worried now. I can wait as long as it takes And so should you, really, as i think if you don’t give the development team too much pressure, they will do better. They definitely have enough pressure as is.

But a few suggestions would be, marketing team needs pressure and also, need to build a safebrowser(which is the main gateway to interact with the safenetwork, so this is like everything, if we can build a good safebrowser it’ll mean a lot) that’s much more like Google Chrome look and feel instead of the old Internet Explorer which no one likes to use these days. Mainly due to it’s GUI and look and feel.

[whiteoutmashups]

@whiteoutmashups

I remember hearing “Beta launch product for the event in a few months in New York,” which was 2014 if I remember correctly.

What about things like this

@Attieg

Not having deadlines do worry me. Adding pressure in the mix helps to ensure time is not spent on constant refactoring and wasting time on finding perfect solutions.

What if anyone does actually have concerns like this. There is no real outside force or entity pushing for anything to be successfully released by any date or decade though we really have no legitimate option or thing on our side to push with.

And I don’t mean you want money for yourselves, but not wanting to release too much code, so that others might create an entire SAFE Net from your code and hurt investors MAID (or render it irrelevant) seems to be an understandable pressure to perfect things internally before a “masterful” launch. Which is something that SAFE development doesn’t need.

Bottom line is its 2018 and Nobody (I sincerely hope) thought we would still be here. Exponentially worse yet, there is no idea or successful 3rd party pressure or timeline to an actual release and we have no real way to push for this as a community besides these unchanging responses I’ve been hearing ever since I first joined forever ago.

What can one do?

[tobbetj]

@whiteoutmashups, I have been quite worried for you, my concerns is that I get the feeling you have invested quite alot capital too soon. It worries me because I realy think it’s is to early for almost any type of company to make apps or other things until there is a known release date, almost full functional network and so on. You have alot of energy and you get alot of things done and I hope you are prepared for this marathon and that you still be there post launch.

[neo]

@DavidMc0

Indeed. But weren’t these working fairly well back on test 15,

Yes, but no one tried to attack it. But there were issues too. Apparently to overcome some issues required additional parts to the modules to be added, The details would take a while, but essentially the testnets were aimed at testing certain components and testing was aimed at those parts. I certainly would not have wanted to use that testnet long term.

[whiteoutmashups]

I’m OK on that but the delays have made me have to do way more firing than hiring for SAFE-related things lately.

It’s four years in for MaidSafe being public and 2 years in for SAFE-FS, so hiring people to make the SAFE-FS versions we have, and marketing for it, and everything else seemed like good and obvious decisions when I did all those.

But dam if it’s another 6 years I’ll have to keep firing even more aggressively. Have 1/3 the capital now with crashed crypto markets, if it’s another 3 year bear market for crypto like 2011 or whatever things will be very tough for every MaidSafe / crypto project in general.

Hopefully everything turns around though

[Cryptoskeptic]

Keep the faith. The people in the know must know where its all at. After all there was a conscious reason to expand the Marketing and Dev resources. So I satisfy myself that there is a timeline of sorts.

[whiteoutmashups]

I’ve never been good with blind faith

[dirvine]

@whiteoutmashups

crashed crypto markets,

Like 2014 when we ended up with our funding from the crowd. It is not easy and does affect timescales (we got a boost last year in crypto and now can expand the team much faster, imagine we had in 2014), I feel your pain, but determination will get you through as long as the journey is just, this one is.

[nicklambert]

@whiteoutmashups

What about things like this

Well we’ve posted a significant number of updates since then Will so I think you should have a good picture of the barriers we have faced. As I mentioned above, how could we be more open?

I see a few comments from you in this thread Will that suggest that our dev team needs to be pushed harder, this is disappointing as surely you must see how much effort the entire team put into the network and the suggestion that we are holding back code to not hurt MAID holders is both regrettable (for you to think that we would do that) and contradictory, as surely to release of a network/milestone would increase the coin price and benefit holders.

I also don’t see this as a you and us (MaidSafe vs Community) scenario, and your comment ‘…on our side to push with’ makes me think you don’t share this view. We have been at pains to push the SAFE Network forward at every opportunity. I read the frustration in your words Will and do understand where it is coming from but the only way the entire network will be successful is if we continue to work together, community and company.

[riddim]

Heyhey

I’m pretty sure no community member has dedicated/is dedicating as much effort here as you do

And since I’m on board for quite a while now too I feel what you mean and I know it’s sometimes really a bit frustrating and indeed we did loose a lot of good people on this long path… I especially miss @bugsbunny, @janitor (though he’s an idiot ; P) and @jabba… Other bright minds just aren’t as active here anymore as they were in the past (like @Seneca for whom I have the highest respect…)

Other still are here, like you, me and @happybeing, @tfa, @neo, @Blindsite2k, @anon40790172, @nice, @JPL, @draw,… Just to name a few…

It’s been a long and stoney road… And it’s hard to not loose patience while doing your best to support the network the ways you can (and while you sometimes feel a little bit left alone because there is not much to hang on except for the dream and test networks that prove the idea to work but this can’t be seen by the ‘regular internet user’ … And then the api changed quite a lot a couple of times and after the third program you wrote that became incompatible you feel a bit like sisyphos… ; )

Nonetheless to me the network feels as real and as close as never before - maidsafe did create bindings for js, c# and Java is on its way now (c as well) - the questions about compatibility with mobile and the launcher model (that were just loosely flying around in the back of my head) are out of the way and we are in the middle of getting alpha 3 what would include most of the security measurements against attacks already =)

So I do understand and feel your frustration but I think now is the wrong time to feel bad about anything or blaming anybody - I think we really are finally getting there and we need to work together as one team and try to support each other as good as we can - only together we have a chance to make this Projekt work and change the world =) but I have faith that we will do it

[Harvindar]

I am not a developer or a technical person. To a large extent i do not know the true scale of the project. Reading updates does give me comfort there is work. But i dont know how much work for what level of completion.

What keeps me part of the community? I like what they plan to do. And i have put everything into this project. The world needs it. I need it. I see a future connected in a way no one sees. And there needs to be a secure platform for all the AI and all else to exist. So this has to launch. So i invest to support what the believe is.

I hope the wait is not long. And this is subjective. But no way so much work can be done and the journey not near its end at some point.

I keep talking to people about Safe. The more i talk the more i believe. I hope i do not get let down someday. For now - i am 100% in it.

[Seneca]

@whiteoutmashups

And I don’t mean you want money for yourselves, but not wanting to release too much code, so that others might create an entire SAFE Net from your code and hurt investors MAID (or render it irrelevant) seems to be an understandable pressure to perfect things internally before a “masterful” launch.

I think everyone, including MaidSafe, would be quite glad if someone else would finish the job. The mission is more important than the business to them I think. If it’s open source we can all use it, if it’s not, well then it isn’t competition anyway.

[anon63178599]

Indiana Jones 3 Leap Of Faith

[tobbetj]

It feels like I want to way in some more right now but the flu makes it feel like there is a bunch of guys having a barbeque in my brain, so it will be a short and compressed one.

Look at all the progress and how the steam has been turned up, since q4 last year, there is no way anyone can expect more.
Anyone that take on risks for possible future reward neeeds to also own up to those risks, don’t take it out on others.

If I would have a business that is focused towards developing software for SAFE-network, right now I would have minimum staff and hold a low profile until alpha4 - beta. Around release of Beta I would try to make a claim and present an early stage software product. In time for Beta I would ramp up a higher gear towards release. Some importent questions for software companies I think is, how long to develop product versus Network release, Is there any competition to be worried about, how much funds are availabe, Is the test network at the stage where a software product can be almost fully developed without need for potential re-build. I just way in on some thoughts that i see as rational, hopefully they can give a different perspective, they should not be seen as advise.

[nice]

@riddim

after the third program you wrote that became incompatible you feel a bit like sisyphos

that for sure !

Anyways I think the tipping point is past. Bit by bit each line of code adds to the previous ones, and slowly the beast is gaining momentum…