Farmers will always supply as much as you need in the model I outlined.
The only purpose of a target utilisation rate, is to get the best price for storage for network users.
In short, we don’t need to over pay for storage that is not yet needed.
Of course I agree. We don’t need to over pay for resources. What we need to do is provide the incentive to reduce the cost of resources on the SAFE Network as much as possible.
Growth for us could be represented in the exponential rate that cost of resource decreases. Isn’t that the goal? To profit as much as we can as a business?
Why can’t there just be a marketplace within the maidsafe network to buy and sell safecoin, safecoin dirivitives, and goods and services. If such a market exists, then the value of safecoin is easily obtained through a free-market mechanism.
Also, keep in mind that the volatility of bitcoin and the various alt-coins is no different to the volatility of any new stock or store of value. the more widely held and used (the more popular) the lower the volatility.
This is not possible and there is a reason nobody wants to do it - such a system of credit has no known value - each new creditor has to be evaluated (a lot of work) in order to obtain a value for the credit. This is apparently infeasible, or people would be doing it. Vastly easier to work with a stable form of value.
Bank credit is still based on the original value of the federal currency/money/whateveryouwanttocallit – this is why it’s called fractional reserve banking - as the banks are required, by federal guns, to hold a particular fraction of pre-existing currency/money/whateveryouwanttocallit. This is a tether that lends a value to the overall currency/money/whateveryouwanttocallit.
Comparing the value of units makes no sense, at all. The value of Safecoin is based on it’s total market cap.
I fully agree, it’s the safest and most reliable form of voting, and also the fairest in this case. The more stake you have, the more weight your vote has.
It’ll bootstrap itself by it’s inherent qualities. People with systems that are turned on but don’t use all the available storage are essentially wasting resources. The SAFE network puts those otherwise wasted resource to use at practically no extra cost and rewards those farmers with SAFE network credit (SafeCoin/P.O.R.). Since the SAFE network needs to pay these farmers less for their storage space than the value of the equivalent storage from dedicated storage services (because a little SafeCoin/P.O.R. is better than getting nothing), the SAFE network will immediately undercut dedicated storage services.
Not the goal in my opinion, or else we might as well try to create a bubble to cash out quickly and then let it blow up. The main goal is creating a self-sustaining, efficient, safe and secure platform for all types of networked communication, including trade. Profit for those who invest in reaching this goal is naturally a requirement, or else there would be no personal incentive, but in my opinion it’s not the end-goal.
That free-market will exist and SafeCoin will have value as a covenient medium of exchange, but there are more crypto-currencies that provide those services. The cloud service is a unqiue selling point of the SAFE network and gives SafeCoin more tangible value.
Partially true, fiat is managed by a central bank which manages it’s stability though.
Also, the common crypto-currency problem is that popularity is strained by volatility, and volatility won’t decrease if it doesn’t become popular. The challenge then is to stimulate adoption despite volatility. A government can achieve that through it’s ruling authority. Without authority you can only rely on persuasion and giving incentives.
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I agree with every part except for this.
I much prefer the idea of everything happening instantaneously, or close to it.
So I think that right when you try to add your 100GB or whatever, you need to either have already been providing the resources, or PAY RIGHT THEN.
Thoughts?
This is from an old discussion and the economic plans have changed since then.
Here’s my understanding so far… based on general consensus.
- The Network will never delete data.
- All storage is purchased with Safecoin only.
- Providing Resources earns Safecoin but cannot be used as a direct way to obtain storage.
The 3 conditions above mitigate the following issues: multiple account abuse, free storage exploitation, and mass data dumping.
What does this mean?
This means all users have to purchase blocks of PUT storage in order to “interact” with the Network. Otherwise they just make a free account to “read” but not “write”. There are already 430 million Safecoins in existence that we can use for this purpose.
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So there will need to be an exchange in place day 1?
Thousands of users (with no interest in farming) come on to the network day 1, to store data or access an app…but have no coin…
Is there an announcement coming? 
Day 1 is certainly going to be interesting.
We have a bit if a chicken and egg problem to start which I don’t know that we’ve expressed as yet (given that @dyamanaka’s well stated assumptions above are correct) :
–It costs safecoin to be able to PUT data to the network.
–Farming requires that data be PUT on a vault so that GET requests can be fulfilled, thus giving the opportunity to earn.
–The only people who can PUT data to the network in the beginning are those who already have safecoin, converted from MaidSafeCoin.
–I assume the team has sorted out the mechanism by which safecoin is ported to the SAFE network from MaidSafeCoin, but I’m getting lost trying to figure out how this nut might be cracked. But this has to be solved before anyone can store to the network, to then be farmed for more safecoin by whatever vaults have joined.
Thinking about exchanges at this point is a bit too much for me. I’m just thinking what hoops I’ll have to go through in order to donate some safecoin to friends and family, etc., to get them be able to communicate on the network. Definitely a lot will have to take place over the regular internet, to exchange wallet IDs to send safecoin to, at minimum.
But this really brings to view another question: What is going to be the initial content of the network and who is going to put it there in the first place? Under the current parameters, it can only be people who got safecoin in the crowd sale, or others who get it from them.
Seems there’s a real incentive to be an early PUTter, hopefully of public content that a lot of people will find interesting and useful–and hopefully enlightening–so that there’s something there to see when a person sets up a vault, waiting to earn safecoin so they can store their files or communicate.
I believe Ernie Hancock of Freedoms Pheonix is planning to upload his whole content early on. Who else?
Thoughts on all this, anybody?
I definitely want to put my data up there, but would rather farm the coin to do so…so who gets the party started…maybe @dirvine will pay to put his Bay City Rollers collection up there 
I think @dirvine might have something up the sleeve…I remember he stated that people will be quite surprised what pops up when the network launches.
Cant they just create a SAFEwallet and you just send them coins i.e no exchange required?
That sounds really nice, but I doubt if we can have a SAFE Exchange by launch. Baby steps first.
Exactly, if they want to interact with the Network, they have to contribute resources (farming) or acquire Safecoin by whatever means. Personally, I would love an “invite + gift code” feature on day 1 to spread adoption. If there is a strong enough demand, people will find a way.
@fergish you pointed out the chick/egg problem eloquently. I refer to it as a non-starter situation. It has bothered me for many months. Most holders of existing Safecoin are early adopters/investors. That means. They do not intend to spend their Safecoin casually. I also believe this community plans to become farmers.
Good Part
This is great news for providing storage supply at launch. Better to have too much storage than not enough.
Bad Part
If almost everyone is providing storage and no one wants to spend their their precious Safecoin, how will we get data to farm?
APPS Solution
The apps are the key ingredient to getting people to spend their Safecoin.
- Social Network. This is practically a silver platter.
- Secure encrypted communications. Sign me up, I will spend for that!
- Uncensored websites that cannot be shut down. Freedom lovers will pay for that ability.
I could go on with more examples, but you get the point.
If we don’t use our own Network, why should anyone else?
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Not sure how this would work, with or without an “exchange.”
It’s a matter of bridging between SAFE network and the existing internet, something SAFE is not designed to do, and I don’t think can be made to do. You can’t do a PUT to the SAFE network from off of it, and safecoin is a sort of data stored on the network.
May have to be done manually. GAK! But surely not.
I’m sure once people get the idea they can farm by just setting aside some disk space (clicking a checkbox in the client installer) they’ll give it a try.
All early adopters have an interest in others joining, investors are heavily incentivised for this, and so everyone is likely to be interested in sending Safecoin offers to friends and colleagues.
I think the ability to generate “gift token installer links” (discussed on a Strategy thread recently) will be VERY DESIRABLE AT LAUNCH. @dirvine / @Viv any chance? Example below:
Gift Token Installers
- I have spare Safecoin and want others to join
- I create a URL that allows any one to install and receive X Safecoin providing this is completed within 7 days. During the generation process I provide the email of the recipient - this can be used by the Safecoin claiming procedure to validate the identity of the recipient.
- I send the URL (by email, text, QR code, any means whatsoever) to the invitee, telling them it has Safecoin for them, and all they have to do is install and register within 7 days
- invitee runs URL (which contains their email address, in encrypted form) and is taken to a web page that provides the appropriate installer (windows, Linux, IOS, Android etc) and emails an unlock code to the invitee.
- the installer completes, the SAFE client runs, the invitee creates their account, is asked if they want to mine Safecoin, and finally asked to provide the unlock code for their Safecoin gift (which has been sent to xxxx@yyyy.com)
Even small amounts of Safecoin will be useful at the start, so we can expect large investors to spread a lot of these gift installer URLs. It would be wise to build an invitation generating feature into the client.
It would also help if invitee email address can be imported from files, address books, etc en masse, as well as input individually. Since unclaimed coin will return to the donor, large investors can just allocate an amount of coin to escrow, fire off lots of invitations, and in seven days, reuse what’s left in another mass invitation.
Coin Fawcet URLs
A variation of this URL/Safecoin claiming installer could be used like coin fawcets to encourage new joiners. Anyone could go to the fawcet website, claim their free coin and be provided with a URL similar to the one described above, but generated using an email which they provide to the website. Safecoin for this would come from the network, or a general pool provided by generous Safecoin owners.
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Podcast concerning new method of creating a stable coin with a volatile coin counterpart.
https://epicenterbitcoin.com/podcast/060/
Hope you find this interesting.
Rich
Property tax is very annoying to me, but it serves an important purpose that has nothing to do with enriching the local school district.
Computer science geeks know the necessity of garbage collection to free up memory so it can be used by other processes. Property tax serves a similar purpose in society, to free up resources that are not being used. If I die, eventually my property will be recycled and won’t just grow weeds for the next 1000 years.
I am troubled by the idea of SAFE storage being forever. There’s no mechanism to reclaim wasted resources. We need property tax, we need garbage collection, we need “pay by the month/year” for storage to avoid terrible wastes of resources.
This is my long way of saying, “I agree with you”.
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I’m hoping to upload a lot of content - basically to convert all of my existing long term storage into maidsafe storage for better security and reliability and for sharing.
Looking at the world today, I wonder how much duplication there is in large long term data storage (thinking DVD’s and CD’s stored on hard drives). I suspect that the SAFE network is going to function, over time to reduce a large amount of this duplication hence freeing up disk space globally over time and hence leading to a lower cost for storage on SAFE than anywhere else.
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De-duplication would likely work very well for blockchains too. Tbh, it should actually solves the whole blockchain bloat issue.
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Thanks for the link.
I think that Safecoin is relatively unique in that we have a resource cost which can be derived by supply and demand of said resources. We can adjust the supply of Safecoin based on this to dampen relative price movements (endogenously).
While we could have a share based system where the price is fixed and a divided is paid out when the relative cost of resources changes, I am not convinced this is necessary or preferable. Surely people would just be forced to factor in their expected divided payment as part of their pricing anyway
To expand, if you know 10 Safecoin will always buy the same amount of resources, but you estimate that you will get a 20% dividend payment each year, then you will have to price this in. Those who don’t will find that their pricing becomes less competitive over time.
IMO, it isn’t the fixed price that is important - it is the predictability or the price over time. If we know that a 20% increase in value is likely, we automatically adjust our long term expectations (and therefore, of our goods/services). I suspect this is more obvious when tracking a single value (price relative to resources) rather than a fixed price and a divided, but a similar calculation would have to be made.
Be aware that the value of anything isn’t based solely on the supply. There are vast quantities of subjective influences. These influences give the market signals about how to appraise the value of things. If you implement price controls you are blocking the natural signalling mechanism (even ants use these!). By making it more complicated to deduce the true value through price dampening mechanisms/algorithms only those who truly understand the mechanism/algorithm will be able to adapt to whatever signal remains after it is dampened. This translates into a more elite-oriented marketplace IMO, not a marketplace for all. I advise extreme caution.
FYI, there are three crypto’s that I am aware that are attempting to peg the price (to the $US dollar) - bitUSD, nubits, and coinoUSD. They each are taking differing routes. Might be worth watching to see how they fair.
You collect garbage on your own property (computer system).
The State collects your property as if it was abandoned garbage.
It is also incorrect to say that idle resources are “not being used”. It’s none of anyone’s concern how the rightful owner feels about his own property. Let’s say I buy 100 acres of tropical forest to preserve it from being cut after when I die, the State somehow has the right to confiscate it and sell (or rent) it to its cronies. I can’t imagine any worse scenario than that (even if I was a crony myself and passed the forest to my children, it wouldn’t be as bad as leaving it to the State).
Regarding SafeCoin “property” tax, some is unavoidable because the network can’t run for free. Who doesn’t like that can build his own network.
I think data should age and be deleted after a grace period, though, because that’s a sure way to identify and destroy worthless data.
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