SAFE network upgrades

Thanks… :smiley:

Yes, that bit’s fine…

Hmmmm…interesting can of worms here I think…I’d say definitely No…There are many different angles to this one I think. I’d probably argue that it is not in keeping with the natural Evoluion theme., It’s a form of slavery etc. In Natural terms it is a parasitic model I think - and you can’t please all the people all the time with their various requests - and what if a user requests to screw the system up…just a few initial thoughts…not thought out.

The only “purpose” of the Network, is to provide Freedom, Security and Privacy.as far as I can see.

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I am not sure we can even identify that as its purpose. We can assert that we think it may be its purpose, but the client the users choose will confirm or deny it.

Ultimately, users will define the the purpose. Even if they don’t all agree, the prevailing choice will define it anyway.

I am…and Maidsafe was…it’s the by line… :how identified do you want it? :smiley:

No they won’t, they will definitively say what the Network has been used for - it may speak to it’s utility- again, not it’s purpose. :smiley:
Edit:
OK, let’s simplify this - the “purpose” is the “Why” in “Why was Safenet created”.

Maidsafe may not even create the client that makes safe net successful. Therefore, how can their tag line define its purpose?

Regarding utility, it sounds like word games to me.

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Pretty much everything I say gets some kind of remark like that. I don’t play word games…well actually I do…but not in the way you mean, which implies dishonesty - I am always very honest in my arguments and never use straw men, non-sequiturs or any other kind of argumentative trickery or sophistry. I challenge absolutely anyone to contradict this claim. I am also always consistent in everything I say I believe…I was going to say “I try to be”, then realised I don’t even try…its autonomous …consistency is an emergent property…lol
If it sounds like word games to you, then that’s of no concern to me - unless of course you are actually accusing me of Sophistry or something? :smiley:

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You either did not read all I wrote or you missed every point I made entirely.
Any experienced coder can tell you that such an A.I designed to monitor and guide network evolution while guaranteeing no harm be done is currently unfeasible. Tell me of even one instance of something roughly similar being completely successful. @dirvine 's goal is noble and ambitious but treads in the realm of uncertainty not to mention fought with calamitous danger. Like it’s biological counterpart, an A.I immune system will miss some infections which is possibly enough to destroy or cripple the entire system (again think HIV) :mask: Even if it were caught early before total network collapse, somebody’s valuable data is still at risk even with redundancy. I don’t know about you, but I hold all of it in high regard. None of it is expendable. Handing over the entire network and its data to an A.I with the intelligence equivalent to that of a preschooler is not advisable. Only when matured and proven should the A.I even begin to be considered for seeing the light of SAFE :sunny: Though still not recommended. This takes years of rigorous testing. Trying to implement it any sooner is careless and irresponsible. Truly deserving of a nuclear bomb up the a@@.

Your comment about running your own code against the network and fooling it into accepting your node is both valid and naive. Your client might “get in”/accepted as node but the deception ends there. Otherwise the network would be garbage as it would immediately be overrun by malicious entities. It is designed to be insusceptible to such elementary expansion attacks. I don’t mind experimental networks as long as their done in a very controlled way. Exposing it to the world at large comes with great risk to the average user.

Not only do I acknowledge the existence of “bad” nodes as you put it, but I also argue that A.I’s are not mature enough to shepherd the network for lack of perfect detection capability and fear of operational anomalies (even if it were I’d vote against it). Those who argue that chunks/vaults should ripped out of the network whenever the A.I fails to catch the infection and must resort to last ditch efforts have forgotten about the intended goal. Let me paraphrase. SAFE network both conceptually and literally for everyone! Human are THE stake holder and must therefore retain some control the network. A.I’s could easily undermine our current values without knowing/understanding it. That is a sort of skynet as @BenMS playfully brought up. Seeing this clearly requires non linear thinking. Sit back listen to your preferred music and a focus on the the topic. In your mind become everything benevolent and malevolent on the network level and let them duke it out. Until then, anyone interested in a rough solution should read my first post in this thread.

The whole project is open source… If I change a few lines here and there and my client behaves nearly identically to the factory client, how is the network going to know?

Serious question. I am sure hackers will try.

Think of the client as a special phone and think of the network as decentralized bank. The bank doesn’t care if you hijack the phone to call it because you have no power over it other than making deposits and withdrawals. Compromise the bank and now there is a problem. That’s not likely though. Read the faq and related documentation.

I think I have a pretty good understanding of how the network works… Giving me an analogy doesn’t really answer the question. How does the network know if I am using approved software or slightly modified software?

My understanding is that My computer will host a vault that will store and serve other users’s encrypted data. That kinda makes me the bank doesn’t it?

The ideas I am in favor of wouldn’t really be considered A.I. Just that the network identifies the constraints in it’s performance and puts safecoin rewards out there to incentivize developers to improve the clients in the areas that will make the most difference… If there are 4-12 clients hosting each piece of data, it wouldn’t hurt if there was some variety amongst them.

Obviously the network needs to have a robust immune system built in.

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The network does check the code of each of its modules. The vault being one of them. Any that deviate from the pre-set parameters is marked as potentially malicious essentially removing it from the network. Analogically grouping the vault and the network regulatory code was a poor decision motivated by brevity. I apologize. Maybe I’m wrong but I was under the impression that the client and vault were two separate systems that are highly inter-operable. Meaning that each could be modified independently. I wouldn’t mind variety among the two but changes to vaults should be regulated. Otherwise flooding the network with a bunch of unstable vaults would render a large portion if not the whole network useless. Especially in the case of mass adoption by users who just want a “quick boost” to their income without being aware of the potentially collectively disastrous outcome.

Such an attack would be too trivial to be overlooked. Which is why as it stands, vaults must pass verification before partaking in the network. To me this all boils down to how diversity will be allowed. The only way to solve this is to increase redundancy. This increases profitability from farming but also reduces storage efficiency (i.e increased PUT costs). How can we avoid this trade off? IMHO regulation by a decentralized yearly elected federate is the answer. At least until a better one arrives.

Playing with vaults and clients is reasonable. Experimental vaults/clients can broadcast their statistics to everyone interested on the the network. Possibly located in a client/vault evolution subsection with both basic and advanced statistics views. High adoption with good statistics naturally results in evolution of the aforementioned system. Those who prefer auto updating could set their computer to update (vaults/clients only) once certain conditions ( improvements over the previous client/vault iteration) are met (e.g Stability, farming efficiency, adoption level, etc).

Example: IF vault stability reaches 90%, farming efficiency increases 5% over previous iteration, and adoption has reached 60% of total network vaults, THEN auto upgrade to new vault.

However, security updates, patches, or other network wide changes should be federated. The hive cluster should not be so easily tampered with. A.I is not suited for this.

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I think this basic idea has been floated a little bit in this thread, but I think a specific technique and general conceptual protocol to go along with it would help others envision an ecosystem of versions approach.

If we want to allow more than one version of a vault or client on the network, without resorting to all or nothing global decisions, we could build in a module support querying feature, that allows a node to locate groups made up of members which support the necessary modules/personas for that node’s purposes/configuration. User configuration could both restrict interaction in cases of an absense of certain module/version support, and report which support it can offer other nodes to facilitate the group creation mechanism currently in place.

Nodes which didn’t support module X, which user A determines are necessary will be down-ranked and not included eventually in that group, but there could be a subset of the network out there which do only barebones activities or run legacy versions, and will interact on their particular subset of the network, along with more functional and more version tolerant nodes that may represent a bridge between a hardline legacy subset, and a hardline modern only subset. Certain modules or versions could be denied by config to opt-out of what seems to be a malicious or damaging module/version.

This approach implies development on a few “flavors” perhaps of vault or pre-built packages which just bring together common open-source vault and client “flavors,” much like is done in the Linux world. The main question I have is can a feature diverse autonomous network still function well, and allow disagreement among various subgroups.

I started a little work on an RFC here. Please be kind it’s my first attempt at an RFC:

correct me if i’m wrong but as far as i’ve understood the nodes group themselves in no other manner except unique id. and they communicate only with the closest nodes considering the id. if a node can locate and sort out other nodes by other rules, wouldn’t it be a security flow and a point of attack?

Your RFC could increase even more the complexity of the system. And more complexity often implies more issues. By other hand, a new version with a small consensus group would be too weak.

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Lol…I think I’ve managed to translate the original Mad Scottish Scientist into English now. :smiley: (not a personal attack btw - before anyone gets giddy and decides to censor me and remove my post…lol)
I think the word you are looking for is “meaning”, not “purpose”…that’s it, isn’t it?
This is going to need some further un-ravelling though, because there is definitely a series of knots to untie around this concept.
You are basically trying to create an autonomous brain (correct?)
If we massively simplify the brain, it has 2 separate parts…lets say
A) The Amygdala - the first evolution of the brain, primal and concerned with “survival” stuff - eating, sex drive, breathing etc. This can be said to be autonomous …roughly speaking.
B) The Neo-Cortex - the “extra bit” that evolved afterwards. This concerns rational thought, cognitive processes, higher order decision making sort of thing.

Ok, I don’t want to get into some deep philosophical debate (well I do actually, because I find it interesting - but don’t want to go “off-topic” , because the apparent thinking on this is that it ruins good/interesting conversation for others…always…so I’ll be brief… :wink:
Only the higher order animals could have what would be called “meaning” in their lives, because it requires B). For example what is the "meaning"in any one individual human’s life? I would say it is whatever “means” anything to them - we give meaning to our own lives - it is not bestowed upon us…
The Network, would have to create it’s own meaning, which is distinct from it’s “purpose”…
OK, I’ll stop just some further interesting thought experiments can be had around all this stuff… :smiley:

“Meaning” sounds as creationist to me as “purpose”, but it’s also clear that David is talking about this from a non religious standpoint. I think he’s saying that by studying natural systems and identifying their functions (which correspond in my mind, to their “purpose”), we can copy and adapt them to perform other functions, according to our wishes, or purposes. After all, all human functional design has a goal or purpose.

I see this as just another facet of evolution, competing (perhaps) with other means of evolving. We are ultimately part of the whole that evolves (at least in one way of explanation).

I’m struck by the level of resistance to David’s approach that has appeared on this thread, especially when it is not just the basis of his proposal for network updates, but as we all know, it is fundamental to every aspect of SAFE Network operation! Did you not get the t-shirt? :smile:

I agree it raises questions that we should explore. It is certainly breaking new ground, and will be hard to achieve. But the apparent fear that the approach will fail assumes that a human top down design, is somehow more robust, because we attempt to address a set of goals in a more methodical, piecemeal, reductionist, manner. When we already know that this approach is never robust. That such designs always go through long periods of testing, tweaking, fixing, and often major revisions, and that this process never stops. Just look at the security problems of the current internet, which has become a dog’s breakfast of top down designed cludges that constantly fail as each new security hole and other faults are discovered and exploited.

How is it, that in the face of so much evidence that top down systems designs, useful and ubiquitous as they are, constantly fail and need to be fixed, that we jump to defend it with the implied assumption that a bottom up rule based approach, modelled on the most amazing designs we know (ecosystems) will necessarily be worse. Especially when it is already fundamental to the success of SAFE Network!

Yes, it’s new, untried, risky, and may fail. But that’s evolution! And evolution rocks IMO.

If one wants to talk about meaning and purpose in the metaphysical sense, I think evolution is worth much study. I’m not advocating going there, just suggesting we don’t need to be afraid of, or to see such considerations as dangerous, or inconsistent with a pragmatic approach to delivering SAFE Network. They are valid questions too, as are all questions from a scientific perspective, and to me, shutting the door on them is unnecessary, and just as “dangerous” as any kind of fundamentalist thinking.

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I know this…

I said this…

Not sure about this…

Disagree with this…it evolved without a goal or purpose.

Can you name me another means/process of naturally evolving other than the non-random selection of random mutations …or whatever way you want to explain it? I think I may be missing a point here possibly?

I think there are 2 different aspects/discussions going on tbh. The first is concerning updates/immune system etc, the second is concerning an AI and leads onto all the “purpose”, “meaning” “brain” “evolution”, stuff …aren’t there?..Lol…my brain’s hurting. :smiley:
I think the objections are restricted to the AI…is what I’m saying…

Same here :smiley: And…totally, wholeheartedly agree with every point made and agree with your opinions with the rest (majority) of your post… :smiley:
PSI’m not using a tone or anything, just in case. I thought it best to succinctly state what I agree/disagree with, so we can get to the nub of any dispute - saves talking at cross purposes which keeps happening a lot on the forum…

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I think that the strength of the questioning is because many have had a distant caution bell ringing about this that it was not time to look at, but the promise of the network and the reality of other aspects are so compelling that they’ve been able to let it lay.

Now that Ben and David are talking about it, the questions that have been stewing get to pour out. We have confidence in David and the rest of the team. But there is a lot of paradigm shifting to do, and guts and emotions as well as very thoroughly ingrained thought structures have to be dealt with. This hurdle may not be set aside as easily as some others, but we’ve got to work through it. In some ways it can be viewed as a potential deal breaker, so such thoughts can now be given voice. I think we all know that David has given these things incredibly deep thought, and we have confidence in his vision. And we consistently respect the work as it rolls out. But “faith in David” only goes so far.

Your last paragraph does lay it out though. It’s the perspective we need to take into consideration as we plow this new ground on so many levels. Thanks for expressing them.

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I don’t see evolution as purely biological, certainly not just genetic. Human cognition is both a product of evolution, and a very obvious extension of it - a new means of evolution beyond what the term was first coined to describe. The most glaring example of this would be genetic modification, but science, knowledge, culture, technology are also examples in the sense I’m using the term here.

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