Some people think the philosophical statement is, “You pay for things that have value.” If the product is free, you are the product. That’s pretty universally acknowledged at this point. I’d rather set the precedent that things cost money, and maybe we can move away from being whores for advertisers (pardon my French).
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Well said.
People should have an easy way to pay for content. The link between valuing a product and paying for it is a very short one. There is even a feedback loop here, where if you don’t pay for the product or the service there is a greater chance that you won’t value it.
I tend to think the sweet spot is somewhere in the middle. Free to a very significant degree, but paid-for heavy lifting or extraordinary functions/apps, etc.
I’m willing to deliver much more resource than I’ll ever need to the network so that the entry barrier is really low and what the average person gets free is generouos. But I’ll be doing that for safecoin (as well as higher ideals).
The concern over bots is not a matter of what a real person might get for free, but more of an existential concern for the network. Bots eating up resources is an attack vector. Limiting no-skin-in-the-game access to real humans at limited resources to protect the network from attack doesn’t seem unreasonable to me. That free level will undoubtedly be hugely valuable.
Having someone contribute up front wouldn’t be philosophically repugnant to me, but I don’t think it’s practical in regards to fast and broad adoption. So what’s wrong with free access with premium upgrades for special features, etc?
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Russel is referring to the content on the network not the network infrastructure itself.
He is saying that artists and creators should be payed for their contributions to the network.
The discussion about the how the network infrastructure should be incentivized is a different one and one in which I definitely agree with your point of view. If you want to use more of SAFE’s resources then by all means but you will have to pay for it in Sfecoins
Agreed. What I meant to get across was that, to Blindsite2k’s point, I don’t believe a radical political philosophy should take precedent over functionality, and I don’t believe requiring fees to “prove you’re human” will limit usage. I do not believe it will put barriers up for the poor. And I believe using safecoins as a way to combat sybil attacks/bot networks will also set a precedent that people should spend money on things they want, and that all things have a monetary value.
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1 heartbeat 1 vote using something like the Nymi. http://www.getnymi.com/
Set it up so the more proof we give the network that we are a specific individual the more points we get. Biometric evidence combined with something we know.
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[This post and the replies to it were moved from Is there a way to reward people for popular content?]
I proposed a solution which cannot be gamed. 1 heartbeat 1 vote.
You take something like the Nymi and combine it with something only the individual would know. This would be something they are and something they know which is actually greater security than what the government uses to recognize unique human beings.
The Nymi itself hasn’t been open sourced and that is the only problem with the solution but the conceptual and theoretical basis behind it is sound. You cannot fake a human heart beat, a dead human doesn’t have a heart beat so you cannot use some kinda bot, and if it combines with something only they would know that would mean even if the adversary has a gun pointed at their head they would be able to vote in such a way that the adversary wouldn’t know whether they voted with the real pass code or the fake pass code.
It’s not perfect but any voting system would have to be coercion resistant, pseudo-anonymous/anonymous, and have unique biometric identification.
Robocoin and the Bitcoin ATM’s have to develop this technology. Sooner or later these problems will be solved and it’s just a matter of specialized hardware really (we can’t solve everything by software alone).
You make good points about how current artists could be screwed over by MaidSafe but piracy is going to be on MaidSafe no matter what happens. I do understand that you don’t want to reward or create a market behind it but that is probably going to happen on it’s own no matter what any of us do.
If you can prove each human is unique by something they are (heart beat or hand vein) and something they know (passcode or pin) then you can set it up so that the people who do this get more points than the people who don’t and let the people who are most verified have more weight in the claim.
So if you’re the artist and you’re also verified then it’s no different from if 50 Cent verifies that he’s real to twitter only this would be decentralized and proven to the blockchain itself by technological means.
As I argued previously, abuse doesn’t necessarily need to done through bot accounts, unique human accounts can be used, so even if you can get a PoUH it doesn’t solve the abuse:
Nymi solves the problem that person A can’t pretend to be person B, it’s not made to prevent fake human identities. The heart beat is recorded by a sensor and in the resulting signal a pattern is recognized that is unique for every human. Nowhere it is stated that Nymi has an algorithm that can discern a real human heartbeat signal from a fake one. It’s probably relatively easy to record a real heart beat, morph it a little bit, and voila, you have a new unique signal that is 100% human-like. Save this signal and you now have a unique ID for a bot. Nymi isn’t made to solve this particular problem.
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It’s very difficult to fake a heart beat pattern of another person. Each person is so unique that it’s even more unique than a finger print. Sure hackers might figure out how to record your heart beat but it’s a lot more likely they would steal your identity in other ways than to go through that because of the expense. And if they are willing to go through those lengths you could simply add facial recognition via the web camera to the Nymi. It’s even more unlikely that someone will have your heart pattern and look exactly like you.
This is why I say you should get points when you improve your level of verification rather than a simple binary true or false.
Nymi solves the problem of what you are. Confidentiality is a matter of something you have, something you are or something you know. It’s the basis of all authentication schemes. Nymi is a cheap way to solve the what you are but you can always combine it with facial recognition to make it even more expensive to game.
I wasn’t talking about faking the heart beat pattern of another person, but about morphing an existing heart beat to create new unique patterns that are human-like and can be used to give bots unique identities. The latter should be impossible for a PoUH system to work, but it’s not something that Nymi provides. Nymi makes sure your identity can’t be stolen, but that’s not really the problem here.
It has to be something you are (your unique heart beat) combined with something you know (your pass code or social security number).
So if they did have a human like heart beat they would still need more than that to prove it’s you. You’re saying someone could pose as 50 Cent and be a real unique human or have a fake heart beat which seems human. I think right now that would be science fiction but it’s at least theoretically possible if enough money could be made.
It would require building a machine and a lot of time. I don’t think it would be easy to duplicate at all actually. I think even if you had the ability to do that 50 Cent could just log on with facial recognition, have more points than the fake 50 Cent as the camera analyzes his face and determines it’s a higher probability that the person with the face of 50 Cent along with the heart beat really is 50 Cent. If you also combine that with something only 50 Cent would know then it’s now more secure than banks, more secure than the government ID, etc.
The key defense against bots is to use a point system where proof of identity is a matter of level of verification. The more points you have the more uniquely human you are. This could be a matter of probability where it’s an extremely low probability that someone who looks like you, has a heart beat, and knows something only you know, could be you.
Of course you’ll still have piracy where people beat you to it and steal some profit if they could have a heart beat generator which could seem real but I think that is a bit more challenging than the average teenage pirate could realize. It’s something I would think an intelligence agency would do and not some pirates.
Not at all, you don’t need to create a heart beat simulation machine. The Nymi hardware can be disassembled. Realize that measuring heart rate is nothing more than a sensor that produces a digital signal that is send to a chip that analyzes the signal. It’s easy to tap the raw digital signal coming from the sensor, change it a bit on your computer and then send that signal to the chip. You now have a new unique ID that can be used by a bot. It’s that easy because this is not a problem Nymi is trying to solve. Nymi tries to combat authentication inconvenience and identity theft, not the creation of non-human identities.
It’s important not to mix up the problem of identity theft on one hand and proof of unique human on the other. They are two different things with different problems, and biometric systems are great to combat combat identity theft but not nearly as great as a proof of unique human.
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It’s not just a matter of heart rate. There are unique patterns to each heart. I’m not an expert in this area but I suspect that it’s not going to be a simple matter to duplicate a living beating heart. If someone can do it maybe they should do it at DEFCON.
I think you all are missing an important point in this discussion. Will users want to have to buy specialized hardware in order to be verified as unique human beings on maidsafe? I’m thinking no.
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Agreed on this. I mentioned this in another thread, but if you’re going to require that people buy specialized hardware, why not just charge 50 dollars per account at that point (don’t do this). The barrier of entry is the same.
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It depends on if the benefits of doing so provide a great enough incentive. I’m thinking the market could make it happen.
Ok has anyone considered making this whole question of validating whether one is human or not a voluntary thing? Assume for a moment we design a thumbdrive or something that does all that amazing stuff: detects your heartbeat, has facial recognition software, a bunch of other things, whatever we like. People buy the thumbdrive and boom they are validated as human and enter into an internet world where there are no bots. If you don’t buy the drive you have to put up with bots and all that goes with that. Some people would be fine with that . Some people wouldn’t. thoe that wouldnt would be motivated to get the thumbdrive. But in either instance we’re not forcing everyone to adopt either technology in order to use the system. Am I making any sense here?
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I like the idea of it being optional for different areas. Some apps might require POH (maybe a poker site, or whatever) while for others it just doesn’t matter. Then we could do something along the lines of a interaction that only a human could do, as someone else already mentioned quite a few threads ago. This then only effects those who want to get access to this special human only content.
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I would point out you could integrate POH with existing technologies, or technologies a person might want to get anyway. I was playing on my friends Wii the other day and they have a balance board that can, among other things detect one’s weight. I’m not saying everyone should get a Wii but imagine an electronic scale that connects to your PC. A bot DOES NOT usually have a body with mass and a sense of balance to go with it. Or maybe integrate with an electronic blood preasure cuff for the heart rate sensor idea. Make the POH thing USEFUL beyond the identification purposes. Or a simple pedometor that the user would wear as they walk around, many people wear those and measure their steps. A bot wouldn’t have that either. If you log in at time a have have x amount of steps then log in at time b and have x + y amount of steps you can easily deduce whether the person is human, or even the same person after awhile using pattern recognition. After all people usually walk at somewhat the same rate. You don’t need to get fancy just integrate with stuff that already exists.
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I always thought it was optional. A way to obtain more privileges. The commuinity can set what privileges require validation as things develop, or the level of validation for there will no doubt be multiple ways and someone could be validated with more trusted, less trusted, or multiple methods. To start no validation. If it is useful to tackle bots, we restrict non-validated accounts to some degree. Etc.
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