Oh muh roads! Muh roads! Isn’t this the argument behind all taxation? Who will build da roads?! Who will build the network inferstructure if we don’t impliment incentives at the network level to compel them to pay? Granted the 10% is more of a 10:1 ratio but still that’s not the point.
Look at us. We’ve got a whole community here chomping at the bit wanting to do everything they possibly can to make this project happen. Do you think that if you gave them the CHOICE they wouldn’t donate a bit to the devs?
What if the devs or any other project posted their budget of how much money they needed. Do you think safecoin wouldn’t come flooding in? “David Irvine needs HELP! He’s about to go broke and all of Maidsafe will perish without your assistance! On top of that we’re running out of yum yums!” What do you think the community response would be? Hell ya they’d download the freaking PtD app and then some.
My point is people do good things without hard coding or compulsion. And if you need to compel someone it’s not really a good deed in the first place.
A long time ago David said they would withdraw the plan for PtP so as not to go ahead without agreement, with further discussion to take place after the initial SAFEnetwork was completed - i.e either don’t ever do it, or add it in later, or leave it to the App level. The latter is not the same thing though, it would be a very different animal.
I agree wallet making seems to be a no brainer, even if the network doesn’t (ever) use it.
I agree and as I farmer who will be collecting safecoins against my anarchist principles, the point I was trying to make is that sometimes things can not be as ideal as we want in the beginning of a major shift.
I’m not sure I agree with that. The status quo is to have IP laws and PtP is very much aligned with them.
Technology has made cloning data simple, making it hard to monopolise the creation and copying of it. It is progress which has continued since the industrial revolution. Computers are literally hugely efficient data factories, which make workers obsolete.
Rather than push against this reality, trying to add artificial overheads to these factories, to keep workers in jobs, we should think beyond this. Instead of thinking about products to sell, we should think of services to offer. IMO, this is far from the status quo.
Farmers are selling a commodity whose value is easily measured objectively - amount of storage, speed of delivery, availability.
Moreover, the safe network requires these properties to survive. It is the nourishment needed to keep the network alive, providing futile land for data to grow.
Safe net at it core is all about storing and serving data. It can survive with or without art of subjective value.
There is still that intensive layer but yes, I agree with you completely; and if farming is the soil than PtD is the seed. PtP is just unnecessary fertilizer IMO because the ground is already rich.
Exactly. SAFE has inherent value. There’s nothing like it on the planet, not even Storj. The developers will create apps regardless of the safecoin incentive because SAFE is too good to pass up. If it has high enough value (and SAFE will), it will be used.
Another point not being discussed here is (I think) one of the main reasons PtP (and PtD) was originally proposed: to give creators an alternative to monetise, and specifically one that removes the value/need to sell advertising.
Either way, these ideas were not just about “fertilising” the network, they were about providing alternative revenue streams, dis-intermediation, democratisation etc
These are all good things I think the most of us want. But this can be addressed better at the app level than at the infrastructure level.
There’s an even bigger risk and concern. Think about the valuation of safecoin as a financial asset and as a viable global currency. Would investors want their money fluctuating because the latest cat video went viral? Or if someone made billions off the next Snapchat app? Would I want my salary be paid in such a currency? Absolutely not.
David has already said PtP and PtD are only a few lines of code (function call really)
I am concerned that at the APP level we revert back to the current system of production which is at the APP level, because the agents say they need promoting on SAFE and thus need a middleman. PtP is not the final key of the puzzle, it is there to provide some incentive to upload USEFUL content rather than junk. Also by having useful content we increase the adoption of SAFE. The network wins with PtP. More coins are released to the market for future uploads which enables the network further. If the balance is met then the network Wins, and content providers win a little too.
APPs can deal with allowing the artists to do their art full time with increased returns for their works.
At the moment many artists end up working full time while their agent/producers reap the profits and the artists are actually still in debt for advertising and production costs. The upload costs are like the record printing costs, but magnitudes cheaper.
Not really this is another matter. More like build the shops and they will come. The road taxation is paid to the ISPs, our data runs over the roads of the links.
The network is the one paying out to the producers for attracting more users. Uploading is a 100% taxation. SAFE is a 100% taxation system, you are paying da man for all uploads. Da man is the network.
The network gives and what it gives it receives (minus lost coins & silly life long hoarders) back as payment for uploading to the network. (Taxation since it is the system, the government of the network)
I think people should look at the pros and cons of both payment mechanisms PtP and PtD . It is important to incentivise the developers who build apps on the network because it is through apps and websites that producers can distribute their content. The Safe network being decentralised and freedom orientated should give the market to decide. My personal opinion would to allow apps freedom to chose their payment methods e it in app purchases of subscriptions. The network should have little role to play in the payment of apps but rather the consumers or users should decide the value of an app.
The network should not be concerned about paying the producer rather the producers should be free to decide bow they wish to be paid. It will be upto usersto decide if the content is worth it. Promoters are a stand alone industryi dont see how the safenetwork can by pass them .If they are offering a service and if the producers feel comfortble to use them, then its fair .
In short the producers pay the developers PtD (apps+websites) and consumers pay the producer CpP through the apps or websites. This does not entail middlemen simply because not evevryone can be a producer , a developer or a consumer.
Lastly i think the network should then pay the farmers PtF for data storage on their hard drives .
PtP & PtD moves away from the user pays system which created the imbalance between artists and producers (media companies) and allowed the companies so much control due to competition for the users limited money.
It strives to allow the network itself to pay a small incentive for developers of APPs, artists, websites, even if the user never pays. As far as I know this has not been tried elsewhere.
It also increases the volume of the coin in circulation by generating coin to pay these small incentives. This is one point people miss. The coin will then change hands or not, then eventually find its way to be recycled back into the network.
It, in a small way, solves the problem of content being freely available to all, removes more barriers to quality content by allowing more people to self publish without requiring “user pays” etc.
I see it as an incentive, a reward, which is what it is called and not a wage, not a living wage, and helping to level the playing field.
To those that fear it will destablise the coin economy, preliminary simulations show that within limits the amounts of the rewards can vary a lot and the effects is like a rubber band, it just stretches more or less but does not break. Give too much rewards OR TOO LITTLE and the economy fails and the network loses support and dies. The trick is to balance it.
Does that mean we have to have PtP, well no but it does help the economy if not too high. Without it early on we may not see the quality content that original artists can supply and just see the flood of copied inferior content.
The pirated content will be put on the network with or without the PtP. If the pirates try to game PtP they compete with each other and in the end individually gain little of the share any particular work would get them, but they will have paid so much to the network that the network is the big winner.
Developers are not after rewards man this is capitalism if thats the case as a developer i will be at the old internet. If the safe network cannot create billion dollar companies like google, yahoo, facebook then its prone to fail espcially considering projects like ethereum are paying handsome to developers and even content producers
That is the PtD reward paid whether you charge or not. PtD does not stop all the suggestions of being paid by other means, it is more a “thinkyou” by the network. It allows some small time APPs that REFUSE to charge the users to at least get something for adding to the usability of the network.
Yes and while we might deplore advertising we shouldn’t prevent people from opting for it if they so choose. It might be unpopular but then again so is disco. Doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be allowed to get your 70’s grove on and put up those big shiny disco ball things.
Better to have the PtP and PtD at the app level to let people opt for it.
I think we’re leaving out a few details. Content providers are pretty much anyone who produces content. Content doesn’t just = music, poetry and art. It’s posts on social media, comments, cat videos, and quotepics too. It’s EVERYTHING posted to the internet more or less. And that’s something everyone is invested in. Your average facebooker might not produce quality content but they’d produce A LOT of it because they’d be on facebook EVERY DAY and posting, liking and commenting on a daily basis. So they’d be earning lots of little tips. It adds up. And with lots of people like that downloading the app you’d have more people contributing coin to larger projects.
Yeah this is pretty much where you go off metaphor for me. My safecoin does not go to my ISP, it goes to the SAFE network. So I don’t know what you’re talking about here.
Again what are you on about?
I repeat above question. What are you on about. Your metaphor totally doesn’t work.
I agree. Yes paying content producers and developers is important but it should be left up to the market and public at large on how they want to choose to do it. If they don’t want to do it then the results will be predictable. A failed network. Keep in mind the network already distributes the value of resources. If someone buys safecoin that value gets redistributed across the entire network because the value of safecoin then rises and everyone’s safecoin will be worth more. And since everyone can farm safecoin everyone benefits. So hoarding safecoin doesn’t really harm anyone. Moreover what with income being so easy to generate and safecoin being so easy to transfer would it be such a big stretch for people to transfer it to projects they value?
I agree developers need to be supported. I do not agree that because someone needs to be supported that people should be compelled to do so.
Why not just create a small app with two checkboxes and a little slider bar or text field or something? One for PtD and one for PtP. The PtD and PtP is only a few lines of code right? So why not just turn it into an app? If you want PtD check here, input the ammount. Done. If you want PtP click here. Input the amount. Done.
I agree the primary purpose of developers doesn’t seem to be profit. And if it is then it shouldn’t be funded via the network but rather the app level anyway. We don’t want corporate welfare. So if the goal of developers is to make profit and start their own Google then they shouldn’t be getting funded via a network level function in the first place.
Gratitude should be voluntary. A thank you means nothing if it’s said out of obligation and not by choice and true emotion. If PtD = Thank You then that’s even more reason for it to be at the app level.
Its the autonomous network saying thankyou, not the user. So no obligation on anyones part.
You have to look at this from the networks point of view and not the users or how much they lose/gain.
Also you cannot view what the network pays out or receives as taxing the users. Because as soon as you do then really 100% of what people pay the system is taxation.
